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Author: Subject: Noob looking for simple shock sensitive explosives
Emmasis
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Noob looking for simple shock sensitive explosives

Hello everyone,
I am trying to find a cheap way to make explosives similar in characteristics to AN/AL.
These would be explosive on heavy impact (shooting with a .308 rifle)
Does calcium AN act the same way as straight AN?
I can't get my hands on the chemicals that you guys talk about but,
I am willing to try any procedure with easily attainable chemicals I.e. pool chemicals, general fertilizers, camping fuel tablets, auto paint chemicals or just off the shelf products I can find everyday.
I am just getting into this, unfortunately I don't have a chemistry background.

Also what is Ti + Si? Another: Al+Fe2O3?

Thank you all for your help!!!!!
Terrance
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You can use calcium hypochlorite as an oxidizer in explosive mixtures. But be very careful, some stuff can spontaneously ignite after contact with Ca(ClO)2!

Rest In Pieces!
quicksilver
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Impact sensitive materials are not something to work with without some reading and studying. Mixing chemicals together without SOME background is exactly the way many (if not most) people loose eyes, hands, fingers, genitals, etc.
That information in peer reviewed textbooks is available free.
There is some very potent reality here in that if general lab safety issues are not completely understood and practiced on every occasion, the individual is "set up" for a serious injury. This would be the same in any agenda where potentially dangerous actions are undertaken with little or no background (archery, firearms use, rock-climbing, SCUBA, etc). What's more the injury is not in any category "accidental". When one understands the necessity for some educational background with potentially dangerous agenda, the tragedy becomes negligence. That in turn reflects on anyone involved in the same interest. The Site has a library of such literature.

There is no question that you could use a common oxidizer and powdered metal fuel however some are safer than others. It may also be "fire season" where you live and some "exploding targets" throw ignited material. The chemistry, per se' is not the only thing that becomes significant but design & utility.

[Edited on 11-7-2012 by quicksilver]

Emmasis
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Thank you for your concern and insight, I do not take this lightly and have been trying to find a stable mixture such as AN/AL. I am not try to make anything that is proven unstable, like I said, I am just trying to find stable alternatives.
I post in this forum because of the wealth of knowledge you possess.
I have read about converting urea nitrate, but I would like to know more than one procedure on the internet that may be dangerous!
Does Calcium Ammonium Nitrate act the same as straight AN?
Once again thank you for your help.

 Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver Impact sensitive materials are not something to work with without some reading and studying. Mixing chemicals together without SOME background is exactly the way many (if not most) people loose eyes, hands, fingers, genitals, etc. That information in peer reviewed textbooks is available free. There is some very potent reality here in that if general lab safety issues are not completely understood and practiced on every occasion, the individual is "set up" for a serious injury. This would be the same in any agenda where potentially dangerous actions are undertaken with little or no background (archery, firearms use, rock-climbing, SCUBA, etc). What's more the injury is not in any category "accidental". When one understands the necessity for some educational background with potentially dangerous agenda, the tragedy becomes negligence. That in turn reflects on anyone involved in the same interest. The Site has a library of such literature. There is no question that you could use a common oxidizer and powdered metal fuel however some are safer than others. It may also be "fire season" where you live and some "exploding targets" throw ignited material. The chemistry, per se' is not the only thing that becomes significant but design & utility. [Edited on 11-7-2012 by quicksilver]
Emmasis
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What could I SAFELY mix it with and what ratio?
Thank you
Oh and what container material?

 Quote: Originally posted by Adas You can use calcium hypochlorite as an oxidizer in explosive mixtures. But be very careful, some stuff can spontaneously ignite after contact with Ca(ClO)2!

[Edited on 12-7-2012 by Emmasis]
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You can safely mix it with plant oil or petroleum ether (both tested).

Rest In Pieces!
Emmasis
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By plant oil do you mean vegetable oil (poly unsaturated fatty acid)
Thanks for helping!

 Quote: Originally posted by Adas You can safely mix it with plant oil or petroleum ether (both tested).

[Edited on 12-7-2012 by Emmasis]
Emmasis
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You said "some stuff will make it spontaneously ignite"
What do I need to avoid?

 Quote: Originally posted by Adas You can safely mix it with plant oil or petroleum ether (both tested).
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You need to avoid alcohols, sulfur. I don't know what else, but if you are not sure, test it in small amounts.

Rest In Pieces!
woelen

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Calcium hypochlorite should NOT be used in any explosive composition. This is asking for trouble. Swimming pool chemicals are not intended for that kind of usage and these chemicals are more dangerous than many people are aware of. Of all oxo ions of chlorine (hypochlorite, chlorite, chlorate and perchlorate) the hypochlorites are the most sensitive and unstable and the perchlorates are the most stable. The others are in between. Only chlorates (with great caution!) and perchlorates are suitable for use in pyrotechnics and explosive. Chlorites already are too sensitive and quite dangerous (there are reports on sciencemadness about that) and hypochlorites are totally useless. Simply too sensitive and too dangerous for this purpose.

Don't maim yourself, it really isn't worth it.

And I also have another remark. Why explosives? If you really don't know anything about chemistry, why this section of chemistry. Try to get some basic understanding. There are many interesting things to experiment with. Are you really interested in chemistry, or do you just want a big and easy BANG to impress your friends? I have no objection to experimenting with energetic materials, it just is one aspect of chemistry, which may be quite interesting and entertaining, but I do have objection to thoughtless making of energetic mixtures with the sole purpose of blowing up things and having k3wls make b0mbz, impressing other k3wls.

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Swede
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In the USA at least, exploding binary targets are inexpensive and plentiful. Are you simply trying to find an alternate source? DIY? Save some ? If the latter, you'll probably not succeed, as sourcing these materials in the same quantities as what you'd get in a case of Tannerite might not be as easy as you think. A pail of pool chlorinator can be >$100. If you want to experiment with binaries, do your studying first, please. It's not as simple as it looks to do it safely. If the problem is sourcing quality AN, here is a good source for the USA... http://last-man.net/store/products/prilled-ammonium-nitrate/ Emmasis Harmless Posts: 44 Registered: 11-7-2012 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood I use this type of explosive so I know whether I have the right "dope" on my optics. Call me lazy but, I am shooting 3-500 yards laying on the ground, controlling my breathing and heart rate. SO as you can see, I am not doing this to "impress" anyone I am always by my self so I remain focused. I don't know if we are talking about the same chemical, but I have unlimited access to Sodium Chlorate. Amongst many other chemicals. I am looking for a safe, stable alternative to AN. I don't know where you are from but, Az. Has the highest restrictions on it because that douchebag Timothy Mcvey is from here, the cheapest I can find it for online is$4.50# then add shipping and it more than doubles.
That is my quandary, my best friend owns a commercial pool service company so I can get anything from him. At cost.
If there is no safe chemicals that he can get I won't even consider them!
I am not some careless, uneducated kid making haphazard combinations, I have never "experimented" with any combinations other than AN/AL.
once again, that is why I am consult with people more knowledgeable than I on this subject.
Hence, my posting here
Thank you all for your help,
Terrance

 Quote: Originally posted by woelen Calcium hypochlorite should NOT be used in any explosive composition. This is asking for trouble. Swimming pool chemicals are not intended for that kind of usage and these chemicals are more dangerous than many people are aware of. Of all oxo ions of chlorine (hypochlorite, chlorite, chlorate and perchlorate) the hypochlorites are the most sensitive and unstable and the perchlorates are the most stable. The others are in between. Only chlorates (with great caution!) and perchlorates are suitable for use in pyrotechnics and explosive. Chlorites already are too sensitive and quite dangerous (there are reports on sciencemadness about that) and hypochlorites are totally useless. Simply too sensitive and too dangerous for this purpose. Don't maim yourself, it really isn't worth it. And I also have another remark. Why explosives? If you really don't know anything about chemistry, why this section of chemistry. Try to get some basic understanding. There are many interesting things to experiment with. Are you really interested in chemistry, or do you just want a big and easy BANG to impress your friends? I have no objection to experimenting with energetic materials, it just is one aspect of chemistry, which may be quite interesting and entertaining, but I do have objection to thoughtless making of energetic mixtures with the sole purpose of blowing up things and having k3wls make b0mbz, impressing other k3wls.
Emmasis
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 Quote: Originally posted by woelen Calcium hypochlorite should NOT be used in any explosive composition. This is asking for trouble. Swimming pool chemicals are not intended for that kind of usage.

So, Ammonium Nitrate was made as an explosive first and a fertilizer second??
Hennig Brand
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I don't think any of the following are good, safe or simple replacements for AN/Al. Plane old 70/30 KClO4 flash should be easily set off with a rifle, but KClO4 is normally much more expensive than AN.

If you have sodium chlorate you could mix that with any number of fuels that would produce explosives very sensitive to the shock from a rifle bullet. Sodium chlorate is quite hygroscopic though, meaning it tends to soak up water. Better yet would be to convert the sodium chlorate to potassium chlorate, which is a simple metathesis reaction, normally using potassium chloride. Even better would be to find some potassium perchlorate which is much more stable than either sodium or potassium chlorate and makes much safer mixtures.

There are ways of desensitizing chlorate explosives so that they are semi-safe. Do some reading on cheddite explosives.

There are lots of things that could be made to work, but none of them are direct replacements, and many are extremely unsafe.

[Edited on 13-7-2012 by Hennig Brand]

"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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 Quote: Originally posted by Emmasis I am looking for a safe, stable alternative to AN.

Hang on, "stable"? I don't think many "stable" explosives are sensitive to bullet impacts Is there any specific reason why you cannot use AN, is it because of availability?

AN mixtures are definitely the safest explosives that can be initiated with a bullet.

Calcium ammonium nitrate is actually a mixture of calcium carbonate and ammonium nitrate. You can extract (almost) pure ammonium nitrate by dissolving it in water and filtering it. Calcium carbonate is almost insoluble, so the filtrate will contain about 98% pure ammonium nitrate.

So do you have access to aluminium powder? Al powder is pretty much the key ingredient to bullet-sensitising ammonium nitrate mixtures.

MESITYL FREAKING OXIDE
Hennig Brand
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Many very storage stable explosives can be easily initiated by much, much less than a supersonic rifle bullet.
I think he is using the term "stable" in a relative sense, as in more stable than something that if lightly touched with a feather blows up in your face for instance. We normally refer to that as explosive sensitivity, I think, or maybe explosive stability. Even most dynamites, which are quite safe in normal handling, can be easily initiated from the shock from a supersonic rifle bullet.

Separating AN from CAN is easily done though, that is true.

[Edited on 13-7-2012 by Hennig Brand]

"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
Emmasis
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Aluminum powder is the easy part especially in a 95AN5AL ratio

Quote: Originally posted by RadioTrefoil
 Quote: Originally posted by Emmasis I am looking for a safe, stable alternative to AN.

Hang on, "stable"? I don't think many "stable" explosives are sensitive to bullet impacts Is there any specific reason why you cannot use AN, is it because of availability?

AN mixtures are definitely the safest explosives that can be initiated with a bullet.

Calcium ammonium nitrate is actually a mixture of calcium carbonate and ammonium nitrate. You can extract (almost) pure ammonium nitrate by dissolving it in water and filtering it. Calcium carbonate is almost insoluble, so the filtrate will contain about 98% pure ammonium nitrate.

So do you have access to aluminium powder? Al powder is pretty much the key ingredient to bullet-sensitising ammonium nitrate mixtures.
woelen

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Quote: Originally posted by Emmasis
 Quote: Originally posted by woelen Calcium hypochlorite should NOT be used in any explosive composition. This is asking for trouble. Swimming pool chemicals are not intended for that kind of usage.

So, Ammonium Nitrate was made as an explosive first and a fertilizer second??

What I meant with my previous post is that hypochlorites are NOT suitable for use in any explosive. This is asking for serious trouble! Mixes of hypochlorites and nearly every fuel are extremely sensitive and many of these mixtures even are self-igniting!

The same is true for sodium chlorite! This chemical can be obtained easily, e.g. from eBay and also from many MMS-sellers, but DO NOT USE THIS in explosive. There are reports on sciencemadness from amateurs who had mixes of sodium chlorite and e.g. sugar, igniting spontaneously because of simple friction, caused by the walls of a small paper bag in which the mix was transported (IIRC mewrox99 is the name of one of these people who warned about this).

Ammonium nitrate is relatively safe, like most nitrates. It does not ignite easily, that is why this compound also is used as explosive, besides its use as fertilizer.

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Emmasis
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Are we talking about the same chemical? I said Sodium Chlorate

"The same is true for sodium chlorite!"

[Edited on 13-7-2012 by Emmasis]
Sedit
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I have been studying and playing with chemistry since I was a kid and yet I still know that I am not equipped to deal with explosives let alone shock sensitive ones. I think you need to learn a lot more and someone here needs to start providing pictures of missing limbs to put it into perspective for this fellow.

Knowledge is useless to useless people...

"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story before."~Maynard James Keenan
Emmasis
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I must be phrasing this wrong so this is what I am looking for: an explosive that will not blow up if you have a container of it and throw it on the ground
It will explode when hit with a bullet traveling over 2,000 fps, that is similar to AN/AL. But easier to obtain.
Remember I am in the state that Timothy Mcvey is from!!
BTW, I am a huge Maynard fan!!!

 Quote: Originally posted by Sedit I have been studying and playing with chemistry since I was a kid and yet I still know that I am not equipped to deal with explosives let alone shock sensitive ones. I think you need to learn a lot more and someone here needs to start providing pictures of missing limbs to put it into perspective for this fellow.

[Edited on 13-7-2012 by Emmasis]
Swede
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Could you not order the AN from that link I provided? Technical grade prilled AN, 50 lb for less than $3 per pound... good stuff. I haven't seen disclaimers that they (or other exploding target makers) cannot ship to certain states, although I may be incorrect there. Red Jacket firearms (from the show) claims to sell a binary that is sensitive to .22LR. I would not want to mess with anything more sensitive than that. woelen Super Administrator Posts: 7778 Registered: 20-8-2005 Location: Netherlands Member Is Offline Mood: interested  Quote: Originally posted by Emmasis Are we talking about the same chemical? I said Sodium Chlorate "The same is true for sodium chlorite!" [Edited on 13-7-2012 by Emmasis] You don't know the difference between sodium chlorate and sodium chlorite? If that is true, then you'd better first do some serious studying before you play around with explosives! Sodium chlorate is NaClO3, and this makes dangerously sensitive mixes with many reductors. In pyrotechnics, chlorates still are used to some extent though, usually the potassium salt, because that is less hygroscopic. Sodium chlorite is NaClO2, and this makes mixtures, so sensitive that they cannot be used at all. Even transporting these mixes in a soft paper bag may lead to self-ignition. The art of wondering makes life worth living... Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net Emmasis Harmless Posts: 44 Registered: 11-7-2012 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Yes, I looked there, it was$4.00 #.
that would be fine if there was no shipping involved, with shipping it puts it at $8.00 #ish. I will read more on cheddite mixes and converting Calcium AN into pure AN.  Quote: Originally posted by Swede Could you not order the AN from that link I provided? Technical grade prilled AN, 50 lb for less than$3 per pound... good stuff. I haven't seen disclaimers that they (or other exploding target makers) cannot ship to certain states, although I may be incorrect there. Red Jacket firearms (from the show) claims to sell a binary that is sensitive to .22LR. I would not want to mess with anything more sensitive than that.
Emmasis
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If I knew the sensitizer for that, which is probably an AN/AL MIX +?
I could stretch out my mix and use less product.
Like I said "probably" the same mix, I will look further into this also.

 Quote: Originally posted by Swede Red Jacket firearms (from the show) claims to sell a binary that is sensitive to .22LR. I would not want to mess with anything more sensitive than that.

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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special topics » Energetic Materials » Noob looking for simple shock sensitive explosives Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues