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isobutane
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Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  | | Mercury fulminate was widely used. Does it mean, that MF is not as dangerous as TATP? TATP is volatile compound and it is its main disadvantage. If
one uses all necessary precautionary measures and makes small amount of hi-explosive, its preparation is surely much less dangerous than crossing a
street in a big city. Problems begin when arrogant boys ignore simple rules. |
Yeah but here is why MF is a viable chemical for caps or primers. It is very storage stable. It does not have as many compatibility issues. So with
proper casing it is a lot more safe then peroxides. A stainless steel casing with a 800mg base charge of PETN with 50 to 150mg of MF will make a safer
cap.
Also the preparation of just about any explosive is far safer then handling especially improper handling.
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caterpillar
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Sorry, I have to disagree. I think, situation is opposite. At least, nitro compounds are safe during handling, but their preparation requires
dangerous mixed acid. Runaway reaction is possible (I met it twice when I was trying to prepare picric acid) too. And so on. Yeah, mercury fulminate
(lead stiphnate) is save when it is wet and therefore its preparation is much safer than handling, but such situation is an exception.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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hiperion42
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Thank you very much for sharing Yamato71.
.....ejuu....................................................................Ffg..............................g.............
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Yamato71
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Thank you hiperion42 for bringing this thread back on topic.
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Finnnicus
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Sorry to bring up this thread, but thank you so much for sharing! My colleagues and I were going to synth relatively large amounts of some peroxides
(MEKP, HTMD, TATP etc) roughly 9 months ago and then I read this...
I have probably saved some of my fingers because of your post  . I only recently
got an account here, and I remembered you and your story, so here I am with my thanks.
My friends and I have a lot of respect, and this somehow brings smiles to us, probably from inspiration.
Thanks again.
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Yamato71
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And there is a huge smile here in Texas.
Thanks Finnnicus.
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Patiamiyam
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That is one eye opening account of what can go wrong when working with 'energetics'. I applaud you relating your story on a site (sciencemadness)
where people can learn from your mistake.
When I was younger I liked to make fireworks (simple skyrockets and firecrackers) I believe since young people have so little experience (and so much
enthusiasm) that they believe that they can 'beat the odds', time after time again. Hopefully, somebody considering experimenting with 'energetics'
will look at your story and think twice (or much more)
I have no experience working with energetics (which is something I have NO idea of changing), but I'm glad that you didn't (also) lose some or all of
your eyesight.
Thank you for your BRAVE recital of your horrible experience and hopefully your story will help people considering similar experiments.
A CHILLING story/experience indeed. I don't blame you AT ALL for your reluctance to post pictures. Myself, I wouldn't even want to see them.
Thank you for your wanting to help others avoid similar experiences, it is a amazingly grotesque story. Unselfish people who want to spread
information from personal experience-I don't know if I would be as brave as you reciting it.
Hopefully we will see other posts (not necessarily on this exact subject) from you here.
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Patiamiyam
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I've been attracted to Chinese glassware too (those companies who steal Pyrox and similar trademarks in the hope of more sales-I'd like to see a few
of our unemployed lawyers see if there is a 'cause of action' there. too). It might be that people who experiment with dangerous substances should be
aware of what at least one glassmaker says is a plastic coating that might have helped with the OP situation (or not)
It adds a few dollars, but after reading the OP story, it suddenly seems much cheaper.
I am very glad that this terrible disaster at least left the OP with his eyesight, it seems like keeping his precious eyesight could in part console
him with his other physical losses.
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Dr.Bob
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Yamato,
Thanks for posting your description. I find a few parts worth noting, based on other accidents that I have heard and on my own experience as a
chemist. I have had a wide range of chemical work, including fluorine and HF work, energetics, peptides, strong bases, small molecules, and a few
polymers (not all planned). I have been lucky not to have any major accidents due to these, despite some minor incidents, including fires, overly
excited reactions, and spills. But are were contained and controlled by planning for what might go wrong. I do dangerous reactions in a hood, behind
a shield (if needed), away from flammables, and wear reasonable PPE for the occasion. I have had safety glasses protect my eyes from debris before,
hard hats protect my head (from hammers on a construction site, as well as other falling debris), and even fire resistant clothes protect me before.
All are items that other have failed to use and suffered without. But I am not saying to go crazy, I don't think you need to use a hard hat in the
normal lab, safety glasses cooking dinner, or fire resistant clothes when jogging. But if you are making black powder, may so.
First, no one should be doing any flammable or explosive work in an occupied house. The ATF guidelines are quite clear, license or not, that all
explosives work is to be done well away from ANY occupied dwelling or other places people are. That goes even more for those with families. As a
young child, I did many similar home experiments, and my mother quickly made me do all of my experiments outside, on the driveway or a bench I built
outside. My chemicals were stored in a carport shed outside. I have heard many tales of people burning down their houses with experiments in
energetics, as well as other chemicals.
And now if it happens, you are also likely to get a visit from the FBI, ATF, HSA, TSA, DOT, EPA, OSHA, etc all wanting to know what you were doing.
When I had experiments go wrong outside, I could back away and let them burn out. Years ago, when my homemade solid rocket engine blew up, rather
than burn as a rocket, my one neighbor came running, but saw that nothing was wrong and was OK. But inside, or near a busy school or store, it might
have been a disaster. That was only one of a few other similar experiments that caught fire while being mixed, packed, or handled.
Second, heating anything flammable, highly corrosive, or explosive should not be done on a stove, kitchen hotplate, or even a lab hotplate if not in a
safe place with some means of controlling any fire/spill that might happen. I have put out a fair number of lab fires (none started by me) created
by trained chemists. Most were taking a short cut, missed a step, forgot to lower the temp when walking away, or did something just plain stupid.
But glass or not, things can boil over, spill, or whatever, and if they are on something electric when it happens, it will likely catch fire. If in
a fume hood made of glass, stone and metal, no big deal, shut it and wait a minute (presuming that you don't have 6 gallons of solvent next to the
reaction-been there). Even a KH fire will burn out if not near anything else, and it WILL happen if you ever use KH in the South.
Good quality glass is helpful, but even Pyrex can break. Glass is UNPREDICTABLE. You can not SAFELY heat (even) Pyrex with a hard flame, red hot
burner, or hot metal surface. Even the lab grade stuff says so on the box, label, and website. There are some materials like Vycor (http://catalog2.corning.com/Lifesciences/media/pdf/Descripti...) and quartz which are much more stable to heat/cold, but Pyrex is only better than
cheap glass, not some super material that will withstand all abuse. Also, minor imperfections will weaken the glass some, but in most cases when that
glass is used properly, they should not be a problem, but that includes not heating unevenly or with a flame. No glass, especially thick glass, will
handle harsh heating well.
Lastly, remember to try new things on VERY small scale. I have seen someone try an unknown reaction on a 5 g scale, using very reactive reagents,
and have it blow up, creating a big mess in the hood, but thankfully not hurting anyone. Worse yet, they repeated the EXACT same reaction, the EXACT
same way and were surprised to get the exact same result, requiring cleaning up a ruined hood twice in 2 days. It almost never costs much time and
money to try things small first, and often saves a lot of both.
[Edited on 15-5-2013 by Dr.Bob]
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Theoretic
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| Quote: | | Like melt sealing a straw filled with NG! and assembling a 500g ANFO charge with a TATP cap and a 10ml NG booster, then carrying the live charge for
over 4km to the testing site in 40C temperatures. |
this is what one could call the Honey Badger school of health&safety:
Honey Badger doesn't care
Honey Badger doesn't give a shit
(and like a real Honey Badger you prevailed after all)
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NeonPulse
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i saw your account of this unfortunate accident kind of scary and i think of it often especially when dealing with ETN in paritcular. makes me that
bit more careful and keeping with the task at hand. i most certainly would not wish this on anyone. it must be on your mind all the time- the what if
i did this or maybe that should have happened. it sucks. when i was 15 myself and a friend were messing around with party sparklers- crushed up and
put in a glass coke bottle with one upside down for the fuse, they were fun for a young kewl they made a big bang. one day we changed it up and my
mate put some match heads in his..... bigger bang, then decides he wants to throw one and see it go off in the air. well thats where his life changes
for the worse.... the tilt sets off the match-sparkler mix in his hand and sends alot of glass shrapnel flying into his face, neck and arm, i get a
little in my neck and shoulder too, man we were lucky though, i remember seeing him bent down with a shower of blood coming out of his face along with
peices of glass falling out of it. no glass blinded him amazingly, but his left eyelid was cut in half, a large hole in the neck under the voice box
you could see into his neck,many other cuts and holes on the nose lips and the hand. he is very lucky with 85 stitches to live, i had 16 for cuts on
my neck and shoulder. he never touched another device again,reminded of it anytime he looked in the mirror. so not even a firecracker. im different
though in that respect. they say some people never learn but i learnt to be more carefull..... good luck with you ongoing recovery and wishing you all
the best. also it is good to see that you are trying to discourage people from HEs on youtube, i saw some of your comments on an ETN video somewhere
there. i hope people listen to your story. NP
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bismuthate
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Yamato71 thank you for sharing, i plan to test my glassware and to not use my faulty beaker. this story will most likely help me avoid mistakes in the
future.
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franklyn
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Ballistic Trauma
http://elib.fk.uwks.ac.id/asset/archieve/e-book/KULIT KELAMIN - DERMATOLOGY/Ballistic
Trauma.pdf
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goldenoranges
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I have never had an accident like this, and I pray I never will. Your account really refreshed that fear, just need to remember that if I am tired or
not thinking right, stay away from the lab. I have seen pictures of what landmines do, and I remember when I cut my arm open with a motorcycle crash.
How are you doing, by the way?
[Edited on 14-2-2014 by goldenoranges]
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virutech
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The Many Safety Precautions That Should Have Been Taken
1) You should have used a water bath to heat the solution
2) This should have been done outside
3) You should have had a barrier set up previously(a wall, a building, a hole in the ground, etc.) so that in
case of an emergency you could duck behind or into it.
4) When it comes to high explosives you should never be cheap with materials, especially when a 1 liter borosilicate glass beaker costs $12.
That's not expensive enough to risk your life.
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MedicineMan
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Dear Mr Yamata71,
Today I found my way here for your lesson from a post on the Amateur Pyrotechnical forum.
Thank you for providing your story as a warning reminder and object lesson for the rest of us.
Those who respond to anything other than your intent are simply in denial or blinded from seeing the forest by all the pretty trees.
I am new here, but have experienced many situations where my reflexes might have injured me (or others), had I not been trained to respond correctly,
or developed muscle memories to do so for me.
As a medical professional, I have seen firsthand how sometimes it is not only the foolish, careless, amateurs who learn Darwin's lesson, (in fact,
sometimes they seem to have really active guardian angels), but even well-intentioned, well-trained experienced professionals who meet Murphy's law,
and may only survive by virtue of other's interventions.
That being said, fate, God's favor, and/or plain luck has also played an integral and intimate part of MY survival to the mid-century mark.
Thanks again for the reminder that I might not always be so fortunate.
God be with you and yours,
Thomas
Desperta ferro!
Awake iron- Almogavar battle cry
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Bert
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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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I am rather wondering where Yamato-San has got to? He's not logged on in a bit over a year now.
Anyone heard of/from him since? I had a couple of questions for him...
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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caterpillar
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Yamato71 has a new follower. My roommate put a plastic garbage can onto an electric stove. He wanted to dry it and most likely his indolence prevented
him from using of simple piece of toilet paper. Good news is that there was no hi explosive no flammable liquid (except molten plastic, of course).
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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erythritol tetranitrate
Today I have a story with ETN thought the whole day. As the day proceeded synthesis ETN. Especially recrystallisation in a water bath from methanol.
The story I know of at least one year. With this story there are hundreds pyrotechnics cautious. I'm sure.
LL
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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No.8
If someone will make, do and fulfill the detonator, you think of this picture. Take safety measures. When pressing. This No.8.
LL
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CuReUS
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for more information on explosions and the mistakes that people committed while making and handling them ,you can read this book (the first chapter by
the author himself will remind you of yamato ,only the time and the explosive were different).
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/46039/46039-h/46039-h.htm
chemicals always show their true characters ,unlike humans
those who respect them are better off than those who dont
[Edited on 10-11-2014 by CuReUS]
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FireKing
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Blowing out the fire lol, yes I can relate to ones stupidity as well.
When I was a teenager, I was experimenting with inhalation poisons and different knockout drugs. The first was a chlorine gas/mustard gas/classified
hybrid. So afterwards, I go to set it off at a remote location only realizing afterwards I have no test subjects. Instinctively, I go up to it and
sniff it myself like an idiot. I guess in my mind, I was thinking I didnt want to waist the time and cost I put into it, just to get no reaction,
since I forgot to buy a mouse cage, and put a few lab rats in it. I was more happy to have finally finished it that I just wanted to test it as soon
as possible.
So after I stupidly took a small sniff, I remember pain in the nose, eyes, and throat. I remember running away and making it like 20 yards before
collapsing and convulsing. I believe the pain threshold knocked me out because when I awoke it was completely dark out and I was literally in the
middle of nowhere so it wasnt like anyone would ever find me. I remember it taking like an hour to find the car as farmland at night is impossible to
see. Effects subsided a week later with no noticeable physical or mental abnormalities.
I dont remember much after that, most of my childhood memories are blocked but I do know that I could have died just as easily as you that day when my
instinct to just smell it, perhaps also thinking it was just harmless and would have no effect on me, was just completely stupid.
For what its worth, the experiment was tested again many months later but on a dying bird. I heard the loud bang of a bird hit my window, and saw it
was still alive but twitching. I put it in a glass cage and watched its skin form hundreds of blisters and explode within a couple minutes. I dont
doubt this would have happened to me if I had passed out before running away from the site.
Repetition of safety preparation is the key to eliminate ones unwanted instinctive common sense traits.
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Loptr
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| Quote: Originally posted by FireKing | Blowing out the fire lol, yes I can relate to ones stupidity as well.
When I was a teenager, I was experimenting with inhalation poisons and different knockout drugs. The first was a chlorine gas/mustard gas/classified
hybrid. So afterwards, I go to set it off at a remote location only realizing afterwards I have no test subjects. Instinctively, I go up to it and
sniff it myself like an idiot. I guess in my mind, I was thinking I didnt want to waist the time and cost I put into it, just to get no reaction,
since I forgot to buy a mouse cage, and put a few lab rats in it. I was more happy to have finally finished it that I just wanted to test it as soon
as possible.
So after I stupidly took a small sniff, I remember pain in the nose, eyes, and throat. I remember running away and making it like 20 yards before
collapsing and convulsing. I believe the pain threshold knocked me out because when I awoke it was completely dark out and I was literally in the
middle of nowhere so it wasnt like anyone would ever find me. I remember it taking like an hour to find the car as farmland at night is impossible to
see. Effects subsided a week later with no noticeable physical or mental abnormalities.
I dont remember much after that, most of my childhood memories are blocked but I do know that I could have died just as easily as you that day when my
instinct to just smell it, perhaps also thinking it was just harmless and would have no effect on me, was just completely stupid.
For what its worth, the experiment was tested again many months later but on a dying bird. I heard the loud bang of a bird hit my window, and saw it
was still alive but twitching. I put it in a glass cage and watched its skin form hundreds of blisters and explode within a couple minutes. I dont
doubt this would have happened to me if I had passed out before running away from the site.
Repetition of safety preparation is the key to eliminate ones unwanted instinctive common sense traits.
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What a way to add insult to injury.
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smithdotyu
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made in china？为什么黑我们中国人？not every China product is bad。
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BromicAcid
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Of course not every Chinese
product is bad. There have been several threads on this forum regarding the quality of Chinese products and there are quite a few members here that
will vouch that their Chinese glassware is extra thick, durable, even a very good deal. Many reagents are made in China and imported to various
countries without issue at a significant savings. Further, Chinese suppliers can be more willing to sell to individuals, opening certain avenues that
might have been unavailable to amateur chemists.
However, as with any country, there are plenty of people in China just wanting to make a buck: consequences be damned. Because they are sending to
customers in another country and China itself can be a bit lax in enforcing quality control (speculating), it is my experience that products purchased
from China have a statistically higher chance of failure than products purchased from other countries (not speculating). The issue can be compounded
when purchasing from even smaller companies struggling to get a foothold. Likewise, the issue can be mitigated to an extent by purchasing from
established companies with stringent quality control and adherence to ISO standards.
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