Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2    4  
Author: Subject: High-order flash powder?
James Ikanov
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 81
Registered: 12-7-2015
Location: Alaska
Member Is Offline

Mood: Zen

[*] posted on 28-9-2016 at 17:07


I use a variety of flash I've nicknamed High Performance Flash, but that's a bit of a misnomer, I suppose.

Basically the theory was that by adding a fuel that produces more gas (sugar) I could get a louder report while getting away with using less aluminum.... Although it does use quite a bit of KClO4.

Imagine my surprise when I realized that even using very coarse sugar (the sort you'd usually pour straight into your coffee, not even confectioners sugar) coated lightly in aluminum powder the stuff kicks off with significantly more brightness than "standard" flash. I touched off about a dime sized or smaller amount with a torch and suddenly realized I was really, really blind.

I think if the sugar was powdered more finely (very finely) and the KClO4 and recieved the same treatment, it might have the potential to go high order, especially if mixed intimately. But I'm certainly too lazy/busy/broke to keep making the stuff.

I've also had interesting results with adding small amount of thermite into my flash, but that mostly ends with more heat and light rather than a larger report.

I realize a "larger report" is subjective" but I figure if the shockwave/deflagration was getting faster/more violent then the report would as well increase.

20 parts KClO4, 4 parts sugar, six parts finely powdered Aluminum. YMMV. I've really only done flame tests with the stuff. And it would probably be very unfair to compare a batch made with my grade of sugar or other such fuel to something made with very fine sugar.

The mixture definitely needs some tweaking, but it performs pretty well for what it is.




“To do good work one must eat well, be well housed, have one's fling from time to time, smoke one's pipe, and drink one's coffee in peace” - Vincent Van Gogh
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Marvin
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 994
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 29-9-2016 at 05:39


Typically it's the other way around. High order tends to produced a snap that doesn't sound too impressive. A cardboard tube part filled with black powder can produce a much more impressive Booom.

Adding things to flash that produce more gas is going to cool the shock wave. It may be extra oxidiser for the aluminium but those reactions are normally slow. Aluminium in existing HE mixes increases the energy released, but the detonation properties, as far as I recall, don't get faster.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bert
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 2744
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".

[*] posted on 29-9-2016 at 07:19


As Marvin said.

Don't rely on perceived sound quality to determine speed/power- Believe in results from witness plates.




Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 858
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 7-10-2016 at 20:48


Well all using a special mixture of ammonal I learned that FP can does make ammonal go full order. One of the tricks is it seems that the mixture must be OB+, Bert, I think I recall you mentioning how AN OB+ mixtures are easier to det in another thread. I don't know why this is; if someone hear knows detonation theory I sure would like to be enlightened? In fact I believe I recently read that ANFO is most sensitive at 2% Diesel.

The explosion was very high pitched with a shockwave that could be felt from over 100' away. Each charge was a total weight of 150grams. The steel piece (witness plate) was 3mm thick on each side. The first two pictures are the charge and result from the FP detonator. The third picture is the result from using the same exact ammonal mixture, but, with a HE blasting cap (100mg SADS, .8grams TACP).

Many thanks to my ATF licensed friend who made these test possible! Bert and Philou, really looking forward to your replys! If anyone wants more details on this experiment please U2U me. You can see the bottom of the containers survived both detonations, also 223 bullets produce more pressure on impact as they pierced both sides.


image (2).jpeg - 1.9MBPlate.jpeg - 3.5MB
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 858
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 7-10-2016 at 20:49


Picture of witness plate from exact mixture but using the TACP cap described above. I should aslo mention that these pictures do not represent fairly the damage that this hollow rectangle steel thing (can't remember the term) took. It was bent like a bow afterwards (see 4th pic (FP cap)), and the dent was about 1 inch deep. No holes though....



Plate 2.jpeg - 3.1MB

[Edited on 8-10-2016 by MineMan]

[Edited on 8-10-2016 by MineMan]

Bow Bend.jpeg - 3.1MB
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Gargamel
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 162
Registered: 9-3-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 9-10-2016 at 11:13


Thanks for sharing MineMan.

Could you provide more information, what exact formulas did you use?
What kind of container did you use for the flash?
And did you compress the flash somehow?
How many flash? At which diameter?


And concerning your ammonal:
What grade of AN was used, I mean high density prills just ground down or with some kind of activation procedure?




Besides:
I made some tests with KClO3/kerosine on a similar 3mm metal section. Initiated with a trditional cap though.
I found that this will pierce full holes into the metal.

Ive never tested Ammonal on witness plates though. But compared to your Ammonal the Cheddite in my test was clearly superiour.

[Edited on 9-10-2016 by Gargamel]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 858
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 9-10-2016 at 12:53


Gargamel,

I do not want to publicly post much more details, as, this opens the door to using easily acquired chemicals which can be detonated by easily acquired delfagrating compounds like flash. You can PM me for specific questions.

We already knew that tannerite and ammonal mixtures could be set off with FP... but the thought was that they go low order... well maybe some do... but this mixture does not.

Regarding your cheddite being superior, there are several factors at play. One being..., I don't think it is. Two, I have no idea how much cheddite you used. Three, AN mixtures are usually low density unless plasticized. Four I have set off ANMAL with up to 20%NM with a traditional cap and it still did not pierce the steel section...

Where you using a 3mm plate or a section, because the explosion from my test would have pierced it, but it received support from the other side, so if your section is thicker than 1.5cm (including air space) it is irrelevant. Lastly, can cheddite be initiated by low quantities of flash...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Gargamel
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 162
Registered: 9-3-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 10-10-2016 at 11:43



Quote:

Regarding your cheddite being superior, there are several factors at play. One being..., I don't think it is

I agree. Thats why i wonder about the little damage your ammonal did.
And that's why I wonder where your AN is from and how you processed it. High density stuff would explain why it sucks.
Quote:

Two, I have no idea how much cheddite you used

130g in a plastic beaker, diameter 45mm.


Quote:

Where you using a 3mm plate or a section


A section. 60x40mm, where 40mm is the distance between the plates.



[Edited on 10-10-2016 by Gargamel]

cheddite.jpg - 2MB

[Edited on 10-10-2016 by Gargamel]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 858
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 10-10-2016 at 12:37


Huh... interesting, like I said even my ANNMAL does not do that damage... with a regular cap

Do you know the density of your mixture? Have you tried to initiate that with FP... I am thinking you would add 2% of Al to your mix, not enough to make it a flammability hazard, but enough to sensitize it.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Gargamel
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 162
Registered: 9-3-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 13-10-2016 at 02:12



Quote:

with a regular cap


A regular cap with TATP?
Did you even dare to press this, especially the front part of the cap?

In my experience, while TATP or HMTD (I only have exerience with tha latter) do have a very nice power, the cannot compete with ETN, especially with hard pressed ETN.

I found that in many experiements charges do benefit very much from being kicked by hard pressed ETN rather than from HMTD.



Quote:

Do you know the density of your mixture?

About 1,4 to 1,5g/cubic cm.


Quote:

Have you tried to initiate that with FP... I am thinking you would add 2% of Al to your mix, not enough to make it a flammability hazard, but enough to sensitize it.

I will include that when I test Ammonal. Cheddites are said to be quite sensitive to shock...

[Edited on 13-10-2016 by Gargamel]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 858
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 13-10-2016 at 11:06


Gargamel,

I used TACP, (VOD 7500m/s @ 2.1g/cc) not Acetone Peroxide...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Gargamel
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 162
Registered: 9-3-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-10-2016 at 12:44



Quote:

I used TACP, (VOD 7500m/s @ 2.1g/cc) not Acetone Peroxide...

Sorry, I misread this. In this case I would call it a proper initiation of course.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2880
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 18-10-2016 at 14:00


@Gargamel,
Nice Smurf googles :cool:;):P:D

@Mineman,
AN based HE needs strong confinement to go to det.
Glass or plastic will never do provide enough confinement...as proven by your witness plate.

Also to cut neat through iron you need at least 6500-7000 m/s VOD...so 2500-3500 m/s will only bend or shred a cut (rough cut).

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 858
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-10-2016 at 21:00


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
@Gargamel,
Nice Smurf googles :cool:;):P:D

@Mineman,
AN based HE needs strong confinement to go to det.
Glass or plastic will never do provide enough confinement...as proven by your witness plate.

Also to cut neat through iron you need at least 6500-7000 m/s VOD...so 2500-3500 m/s will only bend or shred a cut (rough cut).

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]



Oh, but it did det PHILOU... did you not see the pictures! The witness plate was identical in both cases.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2880
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 19-10-2016 at 08:18


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
@Gargamel,
Nice Smurf googles :cool:;):P:D

@Mineman,
AN based HE needs strong confinement to go to det.
Glass or plastic will never do provide enough confinement...as proven by your witness plate.

Also to cut neat through iron you need at least 6500-7000 m/s VOD...so 2500-3500 m/s will only bend or shred a cut (rough cut).

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]



Oh, but it did det PHILOU... did you not see the pictures! The witness plate was identical in both cases.

Yes I did see the pictures...but where was the charge placed?
Onto the bending/squized center or onto the metal and it dit all the tiny sharp holes?

If it is onto the bended place, then deflagration may do as much deformation work...maybe compare with fast deflagrating black powder actuated by the same detonator...

I had medium strenght black powder to completely reverse iron steel pipe 5 mm wall thickness (25 cm long and 4 cm diameter)(it did crack the welding all way long and twisted the pipe walls outside in and the inside out --> result a kind of rectangle folded in half).

Deflagro-detonating mix did confettis < 5 mm of the same pipe (except screew on caps that were schredded into flat star shape)

So sadly for low detonating mixes...witness plates are of little value to testimony for detonation instead of deflagration.

The only way to be sure is physical measurement of the flame front speed via oscilloscope, ultrafast camera or another in use method.


[Edited on 19-10-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 858
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-10-2016 at 11:57


No the holes are from bullets. The picture shows where the charge was placed. I did a charge with up to 20% NM and it did about the same damage!

Also, ammonal mixtures are low density, so we can't expect extreme damage. If it went low order it would have produced nitrous oxides which are easily visible. I could try a rock shattering test, or try a water gel type mixture to get better density... but I doubt a water based ammonal would be flash powder sensitive. Even ANFO can be detonated by an #8 cap (when powdered), so the test I did with the TACP cap should surly work for full order...

If I had to guess I would say this mixture had a VOD of 3500m/s
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2880
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 31-10-2016 at 05:08


BTW Mineman,
What is that flat circular metallic piece onto your picture and where does it come from?
Counter opposite backside of the bending?




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 858
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 31-10-2016 at 12:02


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
BTW Mineman,
What is that flat circular metallic piece onto your picture and where does it come from?
Counter opposite backside of the bending?


It is plastic actually, it is the bottom of the container, the only thing that survived.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
specialactivitieSK
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 70
Registered: 21-10-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 1-11-2016 at 08:38


What is the best value for NH4ClO4 + Al flash powder ?

What is the best value for NH4ClO4 + benzoate whistle mix for whistle rocket ?

It is preferable to grinding or crystallization of the perchlorate to a powder ?

THX
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 858
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 1-11-2016 at 09:40


I have had zero luck with NH4CLO4 flash and Al. It won;t even ignite, I would love it to work though!

Any one have any luck or ideas... especially Dornier...?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
specialactivitieSK
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 70
Registered: 21-10-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-11-2016 at 01:40


CuO catalyst for example?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2880
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 2-11-2016 at 03:23


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
BTW Mineman,
What is that flat circular metallic piece onto your picture and where does it come from?
Counter opposite backside of the bending?


It is plastic actually, it is the bottom of the container, the only thing that survived.

The only ... besides you ;).

This is also a proof that it was a "weak" deflagro-detonation.
But stil the shockwave and thrill must have been great :D.

[Edited on 2-11-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2880
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 2-11-2016 at 03:29


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
I have had zero luck with NH4CLO4 flash and Al. It won;t even ignite, I would love it to work though!

Any one have any luck or ideas... especially Dornier...?

There are many ideas:
-Ultrafine dendritic Al powder (nano black)
-A little C (carbon black of fume), S (flower of sulfur fine powder).
-A little KMnO4 or MnO2.
-Tetramine copper (II) perchlorate
-...
Alone or in combination :D;):P choose your flavor...
I would go fo CuO as proposed just before or TACuP for a beautiful blue-green flash :cool::P;) depending onto the charge weight...use sunglasses to avoid blindness and severe eye damages.




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bert
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 2744
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".

[*] posted on 23-11-2016 at 07:06


Ammonium perchlorate with Potassium dichromate treated Magnesium powder.

Crazy people on the ground bomb range at a PGI convention introduced me to this version of flash-

Do not forgo the dichromate treatment if you are intending to store this at all.




Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

View user's profile View All Posts By User
Metacelsus
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2499
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble

[*] posted on 23-11-2016 at 12:47


What exactly does the dichromate do? Form a passivation layer?



As below, so above.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  2    4  

  Go To Top