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Author: Subject: Looking over the border: EU-Regulations
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Speaking of matches, I hate the kind they sell now. They are hard to light and don't stay lit once you light them. Obviously they've been made "safe".
They *are* dangerous, after all, you could start a fire with them.

Any other SF Bay chemists?
phlogiston
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Assuming that point is reached someday, j_sum1, I wander if the process can ever be reversed. I am worried we are on a one-way street.

The situation seems reminescent to me of the witch hunt for communists in the 50's although I wasn't alive at the time. In both cases the authorities overreacted to a threat. Today it is terrorism. Back then it was communist spies. In both cases, the authorities sucesfully exploited fear to grow a large support base in the general population. Maybe we can find inspiration in hsitory that helps us fight this.

In any case, it is very worrying to me.

[Edited on 17-3-2016 by phlogiston]

-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
j_sum1

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Mood: Possessor of a tidy and organised lab. Now to mess it up again.

Another matter that is likely to arise is that the regulations become unenforceable. And the proposition over matches illustrates this. Chlorates in matches, urea in urine, metal powders on the workshop floor. Ultimately the regulations will become meaningless as they fail to accurately reflect what really happens in our world.

But in the meantime, the situation is pretty grim. Science will be replaced by ignorant chemophobia and related scourges. Public perception of experimenters becomes entirely negative. Normal household products become increasingly impotent. And potentially a dearth of scientific understanding amongst the average people in our communities.

phlogiston
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Good point indeed. A paranoid mind might suggest that this is a desirable situation for law enforcement, because at some point everyone will have a few items in their posession that could be considered incriminating.

Reading up on the communist witch hunt, it turns out that this too was characteristic of that period of time. It was called McCarthyrism "making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence" (Wikipedia).

Let's hope this is not where we are headed.

-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
Magpie
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 Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston Reading up on the communist witch hunt, it turns out that this too was characteristic of that period of time. It was called McCarthyrism "making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence" (Wikipedia).

I just watched an excellent movie about this sordid period, ie, "Trumbo." It concerns the black listing of actors and screenwriters in Hollywood. It stars Bryan Cranston as Dalton Trumbo, screenwriter: Trumbo

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
arkoma
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I went to Lowes the other day in search of Ethyl Acetate and toluene which they USED to carry. Neither one available. Same with CAN fertilizer. And yeah, I felt like a "kid buying condoms".

*edit*

On the subject of matches--just TRY to buy book matches in Oklahoma, Texas or Arkansas. They call the frickin' SHERIFF. "We gotta dope cook in here trying to get Red P"

[Edited on 3-17-2016 by arkoma]

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.
Mailinmypocket
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Went to the hardware store today and took some pictures of what is available (for now) in Canada OTC. Just for fun. It's nothing outstanding...

Very clear 31.45% HCl

Lithium hypochlorite for spas

Concrete cleaner containing nitric, phosphoric and sulfamic acid (could be a good source of HNO3, maybe.

Methanol

Acetone

Solvents...

Sulfuric acid drain cleaner. Light red color. I've seen some without color before but not at this store.

Unfortunately it's the pharmacies that do not offer anything close to what they did in the past.

[Edited on 20-3-2016 by Mailinmypocket]

Note to self: Tare the damned flask.
woelen

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In a dutch hardwarestore none of these are available anymore.

HCl: At most 10%, being phased out, replaced by specialist products for specific applications like cleaning concrete, removing chalk from glass, removing chalk from chromium and so on.
Lithium hypochlorite: Never seen this, not in the past and not now.
Nitric acid: Banned since September 1, 2014
Sulphamic acid: Never seen this before for consumer products. It is known however for professional usage, e.g. in chalk removal of equipment for catering services and restaurants.
Methanol and other pure solvents: all gone, replaced by eco-variants or specialist products.
Sulphuric acid: Not available anymore, drain cleaner is replaced by some weak mix (HG). NaOH still is available though.

The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
Herr Haber
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Damn I would like some of the Lithium Hypoclorite !

Woelen, you might have stumbled unknowingly on sulphamic acid. I get mine to give a new life to WW2 relics found here and there. Makes wonders to remove rust (must boil it, so there better be no HE Inside what I'm working on). Leaves a funny appearance on copper though...
The most common use for sulphamic acid OTC is to clean coffee machines. The EOD friend I talk about from time to time gets his in small bags with his coffee filters!
Mailinmypocket
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I've often had the lithium hypochlorite in my hand intending to buy it...! The 50$price always makes me change my mind though. I can't think of a use for it that I can justify Note to self: Tare the damned flask. j_sum1 Administrator Posts: 5846 Registered: 4-10-2014 Location: Unmoved Member Is Offline Mood: Possessor of a tidy and organised lab. Now to mess it up again. LiOCl. I bought some as a pool chemical. Only 20 bucks for a kg IIRC. It is full of sodium salts. I think NaOH. Might have others also. Perhaps borax. I need to do some testing. If I prouce LiCO3 and then the chloride, I will have something to attempt Li electrolysis. That's the plan anyway. Some Cl2 to be made between noe and then. Mailinmypocket International Hazard Posts: 1351 Registered: 12-5-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Speaking of sulfamic acid I came across 2+ kilos of it in storage. If there is interest I would be willing to part with some. Note to self: Tare the damned flask. phlogiston International Hazard Posts: 1356 Registered: 26-4-2008 Location: Neon Thorium Erbium Lanthanum Neodymium Sulphur Member Is Offline Mood: pyrophoric I wish our hardware stores looked like that! Many of those very useful chemicals never have been that easily available here for as long as I can remember, certainly not in a random hardware store. I don't have a spa. What is the advantage of using lithium hypochlorite over the calcium or sodium salt? Do you need to use a solid for some reason? If so, why not the calcium salt? Does it help spa-goers with bipolar disorder? ----- "If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer Mailinmypocket International Hazard Posts: 1351 Registered: 12-5-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood I'm honestly not sure because they also sell spa tablets made of TCCA. Maybe it's more stable at spa temperatures? Who knows. I also ended up needing non chemistry related stuff at the pharmacy and wanted to see what is available to the amateur here, how disappointing. Years ago (15or so years) it was easy to buy potassium nitrate, powdered salicylic acid, bottles of usp methyl salicylate, sulfur and a few others I'm forgetting. I did however see some bandage adhesive remover in small 30ml bottles with only ethyl ether as an ingredient,$10 though.

[Edited on 21-3-2016 by Mailinmypocket]

[Edited on 21-3-2016 by Mailinmypocket]

Note to self: Tare the damned flask.
Herr Haber
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 Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston I don't have a spa. What is the advantage of using lithium hypochlorite over the calcium or sodium salt? Do you need to use a solid for some reason? If so, why not the calcium salt? Does it help spa-goers with bipolar disorder?

You're an ass. But so am I
I was wondering the exact same thing. Why bother making lithium hypochlorite anyway? It's bound to be a lot more expensive so there must be a really good reason.
That said, I've been diagnosed slightly bipolar. Not enough to need medication fortunately but enough to end any long lasting relationships. Some things are just not meant to be for all. I've read some horror stories about Lithium carbonate especially when you try to quit. Things that make look death by heroin OD actually a good experience.

Back on topic: you can still find nitrites and nitrates quite easily. Your hardware store dont have them anymore? Go to your fridge, get that pack of ham/turkey or other processed meat and tell me what you find among the preservatives
I'm pretty sure you can find a wholesale store where you can find a 5kg pot of spices for chicken, 2 kg bags of black Pepper and... 2 kg of Potassium nitrate, a benzoate or two etc...
Check the "E" list of additives. It's very informative and it might give you an idea or two on how to get those chemicals you're missing.

EDIT:
What I meant is that it might be easier to find than you think: they might just call it another name.

[Edited on 22-3-2016 by Herr Haber]
BJ68
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 Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston Good point indeed. A paranoid mind might suggest that this is a desirable situation for law enforcement, because at some point everyone will have a few items in their posession that could be considered incriminating.

Sorry it´s not paranoid, it will became slowly reality....look at the example of Austria. I am working now in Switzerland and if I go back to Bavaria I will pass Austria...if I have Hydrogen peroxide from concentrations above 12 % w/w up to 35% w/w or even worse nitric acid in concentrations above 3 % w/w up to 10 % w/w with me I have to register e.g. the point "Introduction" at page 2 of http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/cri...
and for concentrations which are higher e.g. 50% hydrogen peroxide and 53% or 65% nitric acid which are common, there is no way that I am allowed to go through Austria.

Bj68

PS: For the authorities:

I etch copper e.g. a very old piece (one of the first tries)

and for that I use sometimes concentrated nitric acid...and i think that is a very legal reason, that even a private person has a use for using nitric acid with higher concentrations or very short: It´s called FREEDOM/LIBERTY Words which are not known anymore from the ****ing morons of this kind of politicians....perhaps it´s time to push this kind of regulations up to place where no sun shines....

[Edited on 22-3-2016 by BJ68]
woelen

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 Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber Back on topic: you can still find nitrites and nitrates quite easily.

Nitrites yes, nitrates no. Nitrites are not useful as oxidizer (I actually tried, it totally sucks as oxidizer in pyrotechnic mixes, even red P only smoulders when mixed with nitrite and ignited).

Nitrates are rapidly banned from the Netherlands. Many companies do not want to sell them anymore. They are available, but only as part of mixes in fertilizers and then only at fairly low concentration. E.g. we used to have ammonium nitrate fertilizer (with a few percent of CaCO3 added), nowadays this is replaced by a mix of ammonium sulfate, ammonium nitrate and some other stuff (CaCO3, MgO). Pure KNO3 and NaNO3 are gone as well. Ten years ago I could buy 25 kg bags with so-called "chili-salpeter", which were 99% NaNO3 and we had K-N-Mg fertilizer, which was 95% KNO3 (the rest being impure MgO, in separate darker prills, which could be sorted out manually). Both are gone, now we only have mixed fertilizers, containing some nitrate, but also sulfate, phosphate and insoluble matter as MgO, MgCO3 and CaCO3. The pure nitrates probably only are available for farmers, who have the right paperwork.

[Edited on 22-3-16 by woelen]

The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
phlogiston
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 Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber Back on topic: you can still find nitrites and nitrates quite easily. Your hardware store dont have them anymore? Go to your fridge, get that pack of ham/turkey or other processed meat and tell me what you find among the preservatives I'm pretty sure you can find a wholesale store where you can find a 5kg pot of spices for chicken, 2 kg bags of black Pepper and... 2 kg of Potassium nitrate, a benzoate or two etc... [Edited on 22-3-2016 by Herr Haber]

No, that is a good description of what is was like in the past. Every amateur chemist becomes good at sourcing chemicals from OTC sources like this. Nitrates could indeed be bought readily if you knew what they were used for. I have known about the availability of nitrite and nitrate as meat preservative for a long time, and would probably have been able to buy significant quantities without questions if I had wanted to.

Now these last sources are drying up too.

Pure nitrates are very quickly becoming unobtainium here. An interest in making sausages at home is not enough to get a permit.

-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
woelen
22-3-2016 at 12:02
woelen

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Removed a post, containing political off-topic crap about islam, libertarians, and thought control.

[Edited on 22-3-16 by woelen]

The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
ganger631
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 Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket Very clear 31.45% HCl [Edited on 20-3-2016 by Mailinmypocket]

Are you sure those are 31.45% HCl, i purchased a few of those and on the side label it says "20*." I wonder if it's just regular azetropic hydrochloric acid, around 20%. I could be wrong.
woelen

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I just read about new upcoming regulations in the EU, agreed upon at November 18, 2015. Directive EU 98/2013 will be tightened and this will be done at an accelerated rate: http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/eur...

Most important changes:
- extending the list of annex I explosives precursors: sale, use and possession of more chemicals will be forbidden;
- tighter monitoring of international transfers of chemicals and movements of firearms by improving existing statistical analysis tools and prioritizing information exchange at EU-level;
- extending the scope of directive EU 98/2013 to professional users as well. Annex I chemicals will also be forbidden for many professional users so that the chance of diversion into the general public is strongly reduced;
- end-user declarations for the few professional users which still may use annex I chemicals;
- assess the risk of availability of 3D printers and possibly restrict technology needed for that;
- harmonizing the rules for every EU nation, a new directive 2016 will be used and will be enforced at an accelerated rate EU-wide.

I expect that any licensing of annex I chemicals will be gone if the new regulations come into effect. Apparently the economic losses due to restricting the use of these chemicals even for professional users is deemed acceptable and if that is deemed acceptable, then forget about a member of the general public who does some experiments or has some nice art project being allowed to use any of these chemicals.
I expect that in the near future annex I chemicals only will be allowed in large university labs and maybe a few multinational companies and of course government labs.

The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
Mailinmypocket
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Quote: Originally posted by ganger631
 Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket Very clear 31.45% HCl [Edited on 20-3-2016 by Mailinmypocket]

Are you sure those are 31.45% HCl, i purchased a few of those and on the side label it says "20*." I wonder if it's just regular azetropic hydrochloric acid, around 20%. I could be wrong.

What you purchased is 20 Baume. Baume is I believe a somewhat antiquated term. Google: 20 baume HCl

See, this old bottle I bought from the hardware store:

[Edited on 22-3-2016 by Mailinmypocket]

Note to self: Tare the damned flask.
BJ68
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 Quote: Originally posted by woelen Most important changes: - extending the list of annex I explosives precursors: sale, use and possession of more chemicals will be forbidden;

There are rumors, that potassium permanganate should be added to Annex I (= forbidden) and according to the dutch government Aluminium, Magnesium and Magnalium powders with less than 200µm size should be included in Annex II (Watched chemicals) see https://www.wko.at/Content.Node/Interessenvertretung/Umwelt-...

 Quote: - extending the scope of directive EU 98/2013 to professional users as well. Annex I chemicals will also be forbidden for many professional users so that the chance of diversion into the general public is strongly reduced; - end-user declarations for the few professional users which still may use annex I chemicals;

These steps are logic from the standpoint of the authorities, because if somebody has a business and a business registration with a trade certificate in Germany he can order almost all chemicals...only narcotics (Betäubungsmittel) and substances which are in the "GÜG" (drug precursor law) are forbidden, because you need a special permit. They want to screen if your business has a "probable cause" for ordering of Annex I chemicals...

 Quote: I expect that any licensing of annex I chemicals will be gone if the new regulations come into effect. Apparently the economic losses due to restricting the use of these chemicals even for professional users is deemed acceptable and if that is deemed acceptable, then forget about a member of the general public who does some experiments or has some nice art project being allowed to use any of these chemicals. I expect that in the near future annex I chemicals only will be allowed in large university labs and maybe a few multinational companies and of course government labs. This makes me sad, really sad

They will try it..no question, but I think they will stir up a hornets' nest: If the "master painter Huber" get in trouble, because his measures against theft of e.g. acetone are not so good, he will roast the local politicians and that will be beatback to the higher ranking politicians after a while. So there will be a point, where even the small companies will be pissed and than they will kick back...or the whole thing will be more or less ignored, because you can´t control and enforce it.

BJ68

[Edited on 23-3-2016 by BJ68]
phlogiston
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Right, so metal powders I can still understand a little in this context. There are not many legitimate uses for these things outside of pyrotechnics.
Seriously though, 3D printers? Has anyone, ever been killed with anything made by a 3D printer? Did they ever bust a terrorist or criminal anywhere on earth that was using a 3D-printed weapon? And then weigh that against the incredible utility of 3D printing and the technical advances made in and due to rapid, cheap prototyping.
The cost/benefit ratio of these laws is off the scale. They look like desperate measures, to be doing at least something or appear to be doing so.

I heard every single politician on TV yesterday say we should not let recent events force us to give up our freedom and way of life. We are clearly already in the process of rapidly giving up freedom.

[Edited on 23-3-2016 by phlogiston]

-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
BJ68
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I think 3-D printer are at the list, because you can print gun parts....this whole shit is prevention or better precrime and because that are fictive scenarios, there is no need for a reason....
On the other hand no authority wants the "Schwarzer Peter" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_maid_(card_game) if they do nothing and something happens everybody will blame them...so they make action (security theater) think on the liquid ban in planes...and additionally if you begin with something security relevant like this regulation you will find loopholes, so it´s a self-fulfilling prophecy....

BJ68
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Non-chemistry » Legal and Societal Issues » Looking over the border: EU-Regulations Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues