Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
Author: Subject: ? Television pyrotechnics w/ orange smoke ?
dontasker
Harmless
*




Posts: 40
Registered: 19-12-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: Plopping

[*] posted on 24-2-2013 at 04:22
? Television pyrotechnics w/ orange smoke ?


This has been bugging me any time I watch any Monty Python's Flying Circus. There are pyrotechnics used to make a flash with a great deal of orange/brown smoke. I just want to know what that is. Is it some lead or mercury compound and that's the reason I don't see it on any newer shows/movies.

What is this? Youtube clip

I could see nitrogen dioxide creating a color like that, but not nearly dense enough as to match what I'm seeing.

I've been watching these forums for a while and I figured this would be the best place to ask as it is one of the rare sites where the info isn't regurgitated Anarchist Cookbook B.S.

Thanks-
View user's profile View All Posts By User
hissingnoise
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 3939
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: Pulverulescent!

[*] posted on 24-2-2013 at 04:45


I could speculate, but you might be better to get it straight from the "horse's mouth" by shooting off an email . . .

View user's profile View All Posts By User
Adas
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline

Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction

[*] posted on 24-2-2013 at 06:38


It is probably some lead compound. Lead smoke can be yellow like that in some cases.



Rest In Pieces!
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
BromicAcid
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 3094
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline

Mood: Legitimate

[*] posted on 24-2-2013 at 07:16


Usually the smoke mixture burns at a fairly low temperature, this allows it to volatilize organic pigments which then condense into the smoke cloud giving the characteristic color. See this site for examples:

http://www.coloredsmoke.com/products.html

FireFox also sells the smoke mixtures pre-made including a 'ninja' smoke mixture that creates a puff of smoke exactly like you are talking about.

[Edited on 2/24/2013 by BromicAcid]




Shamelessly plugging my attempts at writing fiction: http://www.robvincent.org
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
hyfalcon
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1004
Registered: 29-3-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 24-2-2013 at 07:45


Possibly a copper oxide/aluminum thermite flash.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
TheChemINC
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 61
Registered: 22-2-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: fuming

[*] posted on 24-2-2013 at 13:55


possibly an antimony containing flash powder composition. i know that when i used to make white stars for my fireworks that contained antimony (III) sulfide, they left an orange residue where they were burned. In larger amounts, i would assume that some of the products of it being burned could be in the smoke giving it an orange color.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Motherload
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 245
Registered: 12-8-2012
Location: Sewer
Member Is Offline

Mood: Shitty

[*] posted on 24-2-2013 at 19:32


Must say that's a fair amount of thick smoke in a very short time.
I don't think it's a standard smoke mix as one can see a flash and the duration is too short.
Any possibility of dyes mixed with a FFFF BP charge ?

[Edited on 25-2-2013 by Motherload]




"Chance favours the prepared mind"
"Fuck It !! We'll do it live !!"
View user's profile View All Posts By User
TheChemINC
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 61
Registered: 22-2-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: fuming

[*] posted on 24-2-2013 at 20:51


would dyes color smoke from bp? i have never heard of that before...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
*****




Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 24-2-2013 at 22:28


Quote: Originally posted by TheChemINC  
would dyes color smoke from bp? i have never heard of that before...

Yes, it is fairly common. I played with colored smoke fireworks as a child. They are made in all different colors. I do not think it is actually the dye that is boiling, but it gets caught up in the flow of steam from the byproducts of the KNO3-sugar combustion. Thus the dye becomes vaporized.

[Edited on 25-2-2013 by AndersHoveland]
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
TheChemINC
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 61
Registered: 22-2-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: fuming

[*] posted on 25-2-2013 at 14:00


im pretty sure thats how it works. I used to be very big on pyrotechnics (i used to make mortars and my own stars, bp, rockets, etc.), but the actual science of chemistry has started to interest me more, not just blowing shit up :P

but i am still sticking to the mixture having antimony trisulfide or something in it.... or it could have just been dirt that was thrown in the air when the explosions went off.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bert
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 2734
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".

[*] posted on 25-2-2013 at 17:54


Dyes mixed with BP just result in burning up the dye. As AndersHoveland noted, it takes a very cool burning oxygen deficient mixture to vaporize instead of destroying organic dyes. Chlorate and lactose is a common choice.

I could make something happen that looked like that effect with Cu/Al thermite or by putting colored chalk powder around/over a black powder charge. Wouldn't care to do such things that close to actors... Definitely wouldn't want to burn a bunch of Antimony compounds where actors could breathe the smoke either.




Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

View user's profile View All Posts By User
dontasker
Harmless
*




Posts: 40
Registered: 19-12-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: Plopping

[*] posted on 25-2-2013 at 19:16


Quote: Originally posted by Adas  
It is probably some lead compound. Lead smoke can be yellow like that in some cases.


I think you're right. Although I can't remember any details, I seemed to recall lead compounds giving thick smoke with yellow/brown colors.


As far as the discussion about the dye, I don't think it was a goal to generate smoke that was colored. It was probably a product of something that looked good on camera and was cheap.

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
I could speculate, but you might be better to get it straight from the "horse's mouth" by shooting off an email . . .


May be well worth it. At least I may be able to track down who did the pyro work for the BBC back then.

Thanks. Very interesting info thus far. I've been lurking on these forums for a long time.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
dave321
Harmless
*




Posts: 40
Registered: 22-11-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 3-3-2013 at 12:04


this effect was probably the same as that used in the credits roll for DADS ARMY, again creating orange bursts on the battlefield.

the composition used by dads army was made by astra fireworks and was a

magnesium powder
lead chromate mixture.

you wouldnt get away with it now, the above is too toxic ( lead and chromium)

hope that sorts the question out.

dave321
View user's profile View All Posts By User
dontasker
Harmless
*




Posts: 40
Registered: 19-12-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: Plopping

[*] posted on 5-3-2013 at 16:02


All very good info. Thanks.

It's just one of those things that's been bugging me for a long time and I've been lurking around this forum for a while. Figured it wouldn't hurt to ask. Seems to be one of the more experienced groups of chemistry geeks without the soul purpose being production of substances and devices that are design to kill or intoxicate.
View user's profile View All Posts By User

  Go To Top