Fantasma4500
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NH4ClO4 secondary with Al
im just asking about the sensitivity of NH4ClO4 and aluminium powder, i believe i have read somewhere that 85% NH4ClO4 and 15% Aluminium powder would
be the best, also very brisant..
the problem with this is that im quite scared of it spontaneously detonating, which would be a quite unlikely scenario.. (:
i have heard this in connection with ammonium perchlorate-aluminium propellant..
more specific:
can ammonium perchlorate and aluminium spontaneously ignite/detonate, is there any ratios to avoid if this effect is possible?
im also considering to mix it in as 10% of ammonal
AN 85%
Al 10%
Sugar powder 5%
then add 10g NH4ClO4 to 100g ammonal comp.
i have gone through some pages but it didnt show much relative when i searched for it.. 
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Ral123
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One thing I can never understand, what is that obsession with oxygen positive mixtures? Off course 15% aluminium is not enough to fully utilise the
oxygen.
The world is basing ballistic missiles and space programs on solid boosters with APCP. Unless you horribly mess something up, it shouldn't self
ignite.
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Bert
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Al and ammonium perchlorate store just fine in a lot of military and commercial composite fuel rocket engines .
For some real excitement, use Mg powder with a dichromate coating rather than Al with ammonium perchlorate. Don't try to store it very long even with
the coating.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Simbani
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A molar mixture of 6 to 10 should be quite balanced (per 100g NH4ClO4 38g Al) and yield mostly H2O, Al2O3, HCl and N2. One could even add
more aluminum to use the oxygen from the H2O, however brisance will suffer greatly with these amounts of "inert" fuel. Therefore, 15% Al
seems to be a good starting point for a relatively sensitive and brisant explosive.
On the other hand, a 50-50 mixture of these componentswould make a powerful underwater explosive and it should act like a thermobaric explosive in
confined space,
yielding a long overpressure duration.
[Edited on 25-3-2013 by Simbani]
[Edited on 25-3-2013 by Simbani]
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KonkreteRocketry
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3 KClO4 + 8 Al → 4 Al2O3 + 3 KCl
Although not stoichiometrically balanced, a ratio of seven parts Potassium Perchlorate to three parts Dark Pyro Aluminum is the composition used by
most pyrotechnicians. However, a ratio of 2 mass units potassium perchlorate to 1 mass unit Dark Pyro Aluminum is closer to stoichiometric, and may
produce a louder report.
So lets do this. 3 KClO4 has a molar mass of = 415.6477
While 8 Al has a molar mass of = 215.8523
So its a ratio of 415.6477:215.8523, AKA
65.82% KClO4 and
34.18% Aluminum
KClO4 have 46.191% oxygen and NH4ClO4 have 54.471% oxygen.
If you put 65.82% of NH4ClO4 instead of KClO4 you will have an excess of oxygen of 118%
So you will only need 55.8148% of NH4ClO4 to 34.18% of Aluminum, which is
62.02% NH4ClO4 and
37.98% Aluminum
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woelen
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This way of performing computations cannot be used and usually leads to incorrect results. Your computation with KClO4 and Al is based on a reaction
equation and that is good. But you cannot simply translate that computation to a situation with NH4ClO4. You have to redo the computation for NH4ClO4
from scratch, just like you did with KClO4. You'll see that you need more NH4ClO4 than your computation suggests and this is because with KClO4 all
oxygen is available for combustion of Al, while with NH4ClO4 3/8 part of the oxygen is used for oxidation of ammonium ion to water and nitrogen.
So, write down the reaction equation of NH4ClO4 and Al and use molar ratios to compute weight ratios. For complete reaction assume that the reaction
products are N2, H2O, HCl and Al2O3. There almost certainly will be side-reactions, but in a first step I would ignore that and if things work out
well, then experiment a little with variations around the stoichiometric correct ratios.
[Edited on 26-3-13 by woelen]
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Fantasma4500
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Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  | One thing I can never understand, what is that obsession with oxygen positive mixtures? Off course 15% aluminium is not enough to fully utilise the
oxygen.
The world is basing ballistic missiles and space programs on solid boosters with APCP. Unless you horribly mess something up, it shouldn't self
ignite. |
actually i got that ratio from a guy on youtube which i trust got pretty good idea on what hes doing.. he said its nearly 100% OB..
i would like it to be OB negative tho, to get thermobaric effect howewer.. (:
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bert | Al and ammonium perchlorate store just fine in a lot of military and commercial composite fuel rocket engines .
For some real excitement, use Mg powder with a dichromate coating rather than Al with ammonium perchlorate. Don't try to store it very long even with
the coating. |
oh yes the commercial flashbang composition.. but dont you think the reason they use NH4ClO4 is just because it produces the most BRIGHT and not the
loudest? sure its loud.. its flashpowder, but i read somewhere long time back that its used due to its superior brightness (which they somehow
measured)
the problem is just that ive read that ammonium perchlorate and aluminium, if you mix in some gel or something, for use as rocket fuel then it could
potentially selfdetonate, meaning you need to mix NH4ClO4 with this.. gel or what it was, but i dont see any sense in it..
i do have Na2Cr2O7 anyways, but its really toxic stuff to work with (:
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by Simbani | A molar mixture of 6 to 10 should be quite balanced (per 100g NH4ClO4 38g Al) and yield mostly H2O, Al2O3, HCl and N2. One could even add
more aluminum to use the oxygen from the H2O, however brisance will suffer greatly with these amounts of "inert" fuel. Therefore, 15% Al
seems to be a good starting point for a relatively sensitive and brisant explosive.
On the other hand, a 50-50 mixture of these componentswould make a powerful underwater explosive and it should act like a thermobaric explosive in
confined space,
yielding a long overpressure duration.
[Edited on 25-3-2013 by Simbani]
[Edited on 25-3-2013 by Simbani] |
oh yes most indeed it would be strong, have read that it had an impressive brisance for a such simple binary explosive, tested by some people from the
military, i think it was 85 15 UBW
the thing is i just wanted to be 100% sure that i wouldnt suddenly be missing my hands when mixing NH4ClO4 in ammonal 85 10 5 for increased
sensitivity.. (: and power..
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Fantasma4500
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sofar it sounds promising.. usually when stuff tends to go boom instantly when getting in contact with each other, say NH4ClO4 and Al its usually not
something people forget to mention.. plausible a NH4ClO4 ammonal should be capable of full det. by initiation by flashpowder by the idea that
tannerite is initiated by a bullet, which carries alot less energy, but perhaps more focues..
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Bert
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If you intend to make flash powder, you will have the best results as far as sound produced per volume or weight by over fueling the mix, and using
atmospheric O2 to burn vaporized residual metal fuel.
If you are making a detonating mixture, you will need to have it quite Oxygen rich to function at all.
If you intend to produce a photo flash and want the maximum light output, look to include strong emmiters such as Sodium or Barium, or once again,
dramatically overfuel the mixture and have a large cloud of metal vapor burning in atmospheric O2.
The ammonium perchlorate/Mg flash mixture has all gaseous reaction products (magnesium oxide and chloride are gasses at those temperatures), it
releases more gas volume and energy per weight than nitroglycerin. The gasses are also transparent to light unlike a cloud of Al oxide. If it were
more storage stable, it would be of commercial interest. The hexavalent chrome used for coating Mg is bad stuff...
Ammonium nitrate in a large enough volume will sustain detonation without fuel and sensitizers. Ammonium perchlorate doesn't do this. Shimizu
published results of attempts to make a detonable AP analog to amonal. It didn't propagate.
[Edited on 27-3-2013 by Bert]
[Edited on 27-3-2013 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bert | If you intend to make flash powder, you will have the best results as far as sound produced per volume or weight by over fueling the mix, and using
atmospheric O2 to burn vaporized residual metal fuel.
If you are making a detonating mixture, you will need to have it quite Oxygen rich to function at all.
If you intend to produce a photo flash and want the maximum light output, look to include strong emmiters such as Sodium or Barium, or once again,
dramatically overfuel the mixture and have a large cloud of metal vapor burning in atmospheric O2.
The ammonium perchlorate/Mg flash mixture has all gaseous reaction products (magnesium oxide and chloride are gasses at those temperatures), it
releases more gas volume and energy per weight than nitroglycerin. The gasses are also transparent to light unlike a cloud of Al oxide. If it were
more storage stable, it would be of commercial interest. The hexavalent chrome used for coating Mg is bad stuff...
Ammonium nitrate in a large enough volume will sustain detonation without fuel and sensitizers. Ammonium perchlorate doesn't do this. Shimizu
published results of attempts to make a detonable AP analog to amonal. It didn't propagate.
[Edited on 27-3-2013 by Bert]
[Edited on 27-3-2013 by Bert] |
all makes sense..
but for tannerite theres mixed in a percentage of NH4ClO4 to make it more sensitive to detonation, and as ammonal with varying results can already be
set off by flashpowder (as little as 1g per 80g) then i still believe in that it would make a difference to add ammonium perchlorate..
perhaps i will do a test in between initiated with flashpowder and with etn..
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