Fantasma4500
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Ag2O wont react with glucose?
i made some Ag2O from AgNO3 + NaOH (i refined this more than just this tho)
i have tried heating some Ag2O (pitchblack) with dextrose sugar and syrup
also raised the heat alot.. i dont see anything happening at all..? at this point it should be turning into silver metal but this isnt happening..
what could be wrong? im getting pretty confused over this :S
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weiming1998
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Add more NaOH to the sugar solution, that should do the trick. However, your Ag2O might have been already converted to silver metal, but it is so
finely powdered that it appears black and doesn't have that metallic luster, like finely-powdered gold (which is a muddy yellow instead of brightly
golden coloured).
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cyanureeves
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last time i did that i lost alot of silver because some stayed in the thick solution even after i let it sit for a day.i did however turned the silver
nitrate to silver chloride first before converting to the oxide with NaOH.darn silver needed about 4 rinses to get all the black syrup out and in this
step is where i think some silver particles got lost,because it was so thick.i think i lost about 3/4 oz. out of 4oz. of silver and that is not silver
recovery at all.
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Fantasma4500
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Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  | | Add more NaOH to the sugar solution, that should do the trick. However, your Ag2O might have been already converted to silver metal, but it is so
finely powdered that it appears black and doesn't have that metallic luster, like finely-powdered gold (which is a muddy yellow instead of brightly
golden coloured). |
that makes perfect sense!! i told some other guy on sm also that when i added HNO3 to the black stuff left on the filter it immediately formed NO2,
almost like there was a darkbrown liquid formed
didnt ever expect silver to be able to be this fine.. but this means ..
confusing me alot, that the black stuff i thought all the time was Ag2O was actually ultra fine silver powder, ill dissolve it in HNO3 however as i
dont think i got the patience to melt it into a small blob of silver metal, when im gonna use it for dissolving in HNO3 anyways
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves | | last time i did that i lost alot of silver because some stayed in the thick solution even after i let it sit for a day.i did however turned the silver
nitrate to silver chloride first before converting to the oxide with NaOH.darn silver needed about 4 rinses to get all the black syrup out and in this
step is where i think some silver particles got lost,because it was so thick.i think i lost about 3/4 oz. out of 4oz. of silver and that is not silver
recovery at all. |
no definately not recovery.. 
what filters are you using anyways? i use cloth 99% of the time, water goes through it quickly, even better if you wetten it before use
ill try adding some more NaOH to see if that changes anything
anyways you could probably just decant it all? (tho when i tried this some of the black stuff decided to become a top layer due to tiny gasbubbles
forming)
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | | Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998 | | Add more NaOH to the sugar solution, that should do the trick. However, your Ag2O might have been already converted to silver metal, but it is so
finely powdered that it appears black and doesn't have that metallic luster, like finely-powdered gold (which is a muddy yellow instead of brightly
golden coloured). |
that makes perfect sense!! i told some other guy on sm also that when i added HNO3 to the black stuff left on the filter it immediately formed NO2,
almost like there was a darkbrown liquid formed
didnt ever expect silver to be able to be this fine.. but this means ..
confusing me alot, that the black stuff i thought all the time was Ag2O was actually ultra fine silver powder, ill dissolve it in HNO3 however as i
dont think i got the patience to melt it into a small blob of silver metal, when im gonna use it for dissolving in HNO3 anyways
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If you were just purifying the silver so you can make pure silver nitrate with it, then you can just add the Ag2O (but wash it a few times with
distilled water beforehand!) to the nitric acid directly. It reacts with the nitric acid forming silver nitrate and water. No need to reduce it to
silver metal, then dissolve it in nitric acid.
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Fantasma4500
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true true..
also Ag2O shouldnt form NO2 as with silver metal
anyhow my expectation would be to see much larger silver particles which could look pretty also..
seems im gonna need to decant alot of stuff now.. thanks for the help (:
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cyanureeves
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i use coffee filters for rinsing because that is all i have and let gravity do the work.i put the filters inside a plastic cottage cheese container
with a zillion poked holes in the bottom.sometimes i have to lift the container up out of the mouth of the drain jar because it will stop draining
until i let some air in.my cottage cheese strainer has rinsed gold,silver,hydrazine sulfate,copper aspirinate and tetramine copper.
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phlogiston
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Unless you need to obtain the silver in a finely powdered form, why bother with this method at all?
If you simply heat Ag2O it readily decomposes into Ag and O2.
[Edited on 13-5-2013 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves | | i use coffee filters for rinsing because that is all i have and let gravity do the work.i put the filters inside a plastic cottage cheese container
with a zillion poked holes in the bottom.sometimes i have to lift the container up out of the mouth of the drain jar because it will stop draining
until i let some air in.my cottage cheese strainer has rinsed gold,silver,hydrazine sulfate,copper aspirinate and tetramine copper.
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well it seems that gravity is not willing to come out and play today.. the silver i got to make is so fine it just turned 2 litres of water into a
pretty neat coca cola replica 
it has been doing that for now.. 3 days.. i dont expect to see any difference, i might try to filter it tho
you should definately invest in some bedsheet tho and cut it into large pieces, that way you will get a much better material for filtration.. i dont
plan on going back to coffee filters anytime soon.. try some fine cloth at least once, pretty sure you might like it
also another little thing, im not sure if i pictured your setup right, but you can take a 2 litre soda bottle or alike, then cut the top off
(preferable 15 cm down from top)
then you simply just take the top, flip upside down, unscrew the lid, insert a filter and then you have a decently sized collection ''tank'' in
usually PET plastic, this is as i remember it very useful for when using coffee filters, holes can be made all around this to increase the speed of
filtration, but if you want that youre better off with using cloth
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston | Unless you need to obtain the silver in a finely powdered form, why bother with this method at all?
If you simply heat Ag2O it readily decomposes into Ag and O2.
[Edited on 13-5-2013 by phlogiston] |
well basically you can decompose anything, literally..
my concern is just how much would i need to heat it?
a do-able temperature would be around 300*C but 500*C is becoming tricky and 1000*C is just a no i only have a electrical stove and butane-propane burners to do with and it still needs to be relatively economical
but the reason i turned it into metallic silver was pretty much because i saw some syrup cheap, so i took it as i could use it for silver refining
aswell as rocket candy.. (:
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cyanureeves
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no Antiswat i decant that dark syrup because in no way will it go through filters.i too have to decant many times the syrupy solution and am amazed
at how much water it takes to make that stuff semi-clear.i think i lose alot of silver in the decanting process because some fine particles do not
sink to the bottom of the viscose muck.
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phlogiston
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| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat |
my concern is just how much would i need to heat it?
a do-able temperature would be around 300*C but 500*C is becoming tricky and 1000*C is just a no i only have a |
According to wikipedia, 280 deg C
According to thermodynamics, 152 deg C
(http://www.csun.edu/~jeloranta/CHEM351/example5.pdf)
So, some difference but I think it is safe to say you can easily reach it. I have done it myself with a butane/air torch intended for soldering copper
water pipes (and also managed to just barely melt the silver with it, mp=961 deg C).
[Edited on 15-5-2013 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves | | no Antiswat i decant that dark syrup because in no way will it go through filters.i too have to decant many times the syrupy solution and am amazed
at how much water it takes to make that stuff semi-clear.i think i lose alot of silver in the decanting process because some fine particles do not
sink to the bottom of the viscose muck. |
hm.. mine isnt very viscious tho.. its 2 litres as thin as water, i did it in very small scale tho which might explain why, also i used a small amount
of Ag2O at start and with almost no water so i didnt add much syrup to it..
you could potentially add HNO3 to the filters afterwards, and then pour water over to then get all the AgNO3 out..
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston |
According to wikipedia, 280 deg C
According to thermodynamics, 152 deg C
(http://www.csun.edu/~jeloranta/CHEM351/example5.pdf)
So, some difference but I think it is safe to say you can easily reach it. I have done it myself with a butane/air torch intended for soldering copper
water pipes (and also managed to just barely melt the silver with it, mp=961 deg C).
[Edited on 15-5-2013 by phlogiston] |
hm, im very certain i looked around on Ag2O alot and found it to be around the usual metal oxide in pretty much all properties..
sorry if i sounded like a k3wl craving spoonfeeding :s
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cyanureeves
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hey just now i had a little bit of silver chloride so i added some lye until it turned all black then rinsed it in a coffee filter.guess what?i melted
it with blue ordinary walmart propane i use for soldering.then what's the deal with corn syrup?i lost about an oz. of silver using karo syrup.i
shoulda made peanut brittle instead.
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phlogiston
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| Quote: | hm, im very certain i looked around on Ag2O alot and found it to be around the usual metal oxide in pretty much all properties..
sorry if i sounded like a k3wl craving spoonfeeding :s
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Don't worry you don't sound like a kewl needing spoonfeeding.
I don't think there is such thing as a 'usual' metal oxide. Different metal oxides (and different oxides of one metal) have many different properties.
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves | | hey just now i had a little bit of silver chloride so i added some lye until it turned all black then rinsed it in a coffee filter.guess what?i melted
it with blue ordinary walmart propane i use for soldering.then what's the deal with corn syrup?i lost about an oz. of silver using karo syrup.i
shoulda made peanut brittle instead. |
hm..
well IIRC butane alone is capable of reaching temperatures of 1064*C, adding oxygen to that (by taking in air or catalysing with platinum?) could add
some temperature, and i havent really seen any burners without air intake..
i might try this, as i have a decently thick can of some unknown steel alloy..
the thing is just that you always see those jewellers that uses 20 minutes or more when making a tiny silver blob in their melting pots of some very
specific clay alloy or something.. (:
i have melted big amounts of aluminium and lead aswell as zinc before but never anything that needed more heat than that really.. ill try.
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston | | Quote: | hm, im very certain i looked around on Ag2O alot and found it to be around the usual metal oxide in pretty much all properties..
sorry if i sounded like a k3wl craving spoonfeeding :s
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Don't worry you don't sound like a kewl needing spoonfeeding.
I don't think there is such thing as a 'usual' metal oxide. Different metal oxides (and different oxides of one metal) have many different properties.
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indeed.. surprisingly to me when i read it Al2O3 is supposed to be something of incredible hardness..
a friend of mine mentioned that when he lit off some thermite in his garden there was not only a slight rain of iron gas that cooled down to solid
iron, but also he found some weird non-magnetic material leftover, it was superhard and impossible to crush into smaller pieces.. turns out this was
Al2O3..
i believe also this is pretty well chemically resistant, not sure at all, but i think i read this about it also? melting point was at least 2000*C
also..
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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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Umm try 90% Ag2O and Sugar by weight, or just put insanely extra Ag2O and try it. Ag2O only donates very little oxygen by weight so you shall add a
lot.
[Edited on 17-5-2013 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]
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Fleaker
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Follow the advice in Brauer's (available in the forum library)--the procedure works and is quantitative.
FYI, Ag2O is indeed soluble in nitric acid. AgCl is also soluble in HCl of a high concentration (have no more than a 0.2 M solution of HCl remaining).
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
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cyanureeves
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Antiswat i sent you a u2u telling you that i will correct my hasty error on your post so here i go.i made silver chloride then added lye and it turned
black.i heated this black salt and it did turn to silver metal BUT i could not get it to melt flowingly with propane as it does with oxyacetylene.i
must have had another kind of salt prior because that particular metal will not react with nitric.i did however do without the corn syrup by turning
silver nitrate to silver chloride using table salt then just added lye to that.yep!shoulda just made peanut brittle.
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