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12AX7
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Perchlorates [sic] are safe with sulfur.
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quicksilver
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The idiosyncratic element of mixing sulfur and KCLO3 is not dangerous in and of of itself.The concept is that moisture would evolve an acid if the
sulfur had impurities...it is the acidic impurities in any KCLO3 composition that presents a problem. Sulfur being a classical example of an element
with many impurities, etc. due to the old-time practice of using sulfur "flowers" (big difference).
With sulfur GENERALLY being as pure as most anything can be these days (sulfur "flour" of course) this is not considered a problem by many but rather
it is a sensitizing agent when speaking of a composition that is to be considered for shock or friction sensitivity.
One can try this typical PGII experiment at home. Mix a 70/30 flash mix with KCLO3 and the finest grade Al available. Test via slight enclosure for
response to flame.....you will get a sharp report. It's loud. Then place a small amount on an iron surface and strike it with a hammer.....no report!
Sensitive with sulfur to a 3:1:1 level (at one gram only, don't make a large amount) - strike with hammer and you'll have a strong report (close to
flame stimulus). Hell, the composition seems like a primary HE, it's so sensitive to shock and powerful. If the material is kept dry and not exposed
to stimulus it won't explode however. But it DOES make an interesting display. 
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Zinc
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 209
maybe if you were to leave out the sulfer (im not sure that it acutally does anything)
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Today I tried it whitout sulfur. It burns slower with a orange flame and white smoke. The smoke doesn't change in collor.
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quicksilver
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IT IS GENERALLY AGREED THAT SULFUR WILL LOWER THE TEMP NECESSARY FOR IGNITION in compositions where it functions as both a fuel and reducing agent.
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.50AE
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Hello everyone,
I'm new to the pyrotechnics, and my first try is the flash powder.
I use KMnO4 + Al, but no sulfur, beacause i'm worried that it will be unstable, like I have read in other pyro web sites. But still, i'm not sure
about it, will it be safe ? I don't store the powder more than 2 days, I make it and I immediately use it after this.
I'm using this flash powder for home made firecrackers made from paperboard. The question is - can the firecracker explode spontaneously im my pocket
or hand ? Should I be worried ?
The aluminium powder is 400 mesh, the KMnO4 too.
I'm sorry if my english is bad. Thank you.
[Edited on 7-7-2007 by .50AE]
[Edited on 7-7-2007 by .50AE]
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quicksilver
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YES -> YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYES (see how you can see the word "EYES" even though it's not there?)
YES, you should be worried, very worried. Virtually all of the real nasty (& I mean nasty) accidents that happen to first time / new pyro
experimenters happen via flash. And using KMnO4 for your oxidizer is asking for it. Do NOT do this experiment. --- Instead, try making standard flash
in quantities of LESS than 1 gram!!!! - and work with that for awhile. If you should have an accident you most likely won't loose sight in both eyes
and I think that one gram of good strong flash in a paper enclosure won't knock more than one finger off and if it's not your thumb, your still in the
game!
However on a serious note, energetic compositions do need some stimulus to initiate but the mere fact that you are asking that question indicates that
you should research the various methods that initiation may occur BEFORE you even open a bottle. Quite frankly questions like this make me generally
want to convince the questioner that the project needs much more information prior to the actual lab. Some folks think that it's the material per se'
that gets them in trouble; but it's really lack of knowledge that does them in.
So a search on 'accidents", "serious injuries", and "nightmare" before you start....it will give you an opportunity to re-think your first project.
How about a cone or a sparkler? They can be fun and they won't disturb the neighbors.
Now, I don't want to put you off pyrotechnics in any way.....I really don't. But pyro is much more fun with all your body parts! Especially that part
about you putting it in your pocket......You WILL want to keep your genitals: honest! Whats more, a tearing, searing burn to one's scrotum or penis is
very bad form to present to the hospital. Circumcision through traumatic amputation is also bad form.....the penis is a terrible thing to waste.
[Edited on 7-7-2007 by quicksilver]
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.50AE
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Well, I have already made many times this flash composition in 1g to 15g, but ignited it unsealed. I tried many times to hit a 0.2g mixture, but i did
not ignite.  By now, I've never had an accident, or spontaneous explosion.
Thank you for your reply
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.50AE
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Thank you very much for the post.
Well, i know how a blown hand, or head looks like and I really don't want this to happen to me  . I don't want to become a professional pyro technician, I just want to make some beginner's stuff, like small
firecrackers, smoke bombs, fountains and maybe rockets later.
But I must be sure that they are safe enough first. If not, I won't make them.
What I like at the KMnO4 flash powder is that it produces a very beautifull flash, is powerfull, simple to make and the potassium permanganate is very
easy to find. For now, i've never had a problem with stability, but thank you letting me know. I always mix small quantities, so there should not be a
problem. And maybe when i want to explode a firecracker, i'll put the flash powder and seal it just before I ignite it, maybe it will be the safest
way.
[Edited on 7-7-2007 by .50AE]
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DerAlte
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@ .50AE - heed the wise advice in this thread.
I am not a pyrotechnician but do not disapprove of them in any way, let me add. I only hope that any who indulge know the risks, both to themselves
and to others. Responsible amateurs do. I used to dabble in it myself, more years ago than I care to remember. I still do the occasional energetic
reaction for grandchildren.
That said, I think you have the correct cautious approach. This is an old thread I had nor seen before since I am also a new member. I was previously
reluctant to mention my experiences with KMnO4 and flash powder but I see it has come up before, so here's my 2 cents worth. Don't want to excite the
kewls and teenies!
My first flash and actual explosion was with the KMnO4/Mg mixture mentioned above (early teen years). I had by then tried chlorate (didn't have
perchlorate) and Al, Mg, S, C - any reducing agent I knew and had, in fact, including red P. Chlorate and red P I had found was a no-no, having
managed to burn off eyebrows and eyelashes by trying to mix in a mortar. Luckily no eye damage, it burned (relatively) slowly. Sulphur and chlorate
could explode under a hammer, but the flash powder only went whoosh or pop in a short tube. Comparing chlorate to KMnO4 on a paper strip, I was amazed
to find that it was faster. Tests in the same sized short tube actually made a crack. Being a bright young lad, even if deficient in knowledge, I
later added some sulphur, thinking that for a really good explosion a bit of gas would help.
It did. I also found that Al did almost as well but not quite, in spite of the fact that the Mg was granular and the Al very fine mesh. I made
immunerable bangers and crackers in this way without any problems, but came to respect this mixture. A couple of years later, on firework night I
made a rather large one, I guess about 30g, an ounce or so, and let it off in the middle of our lawn. It was in a carboard tube tightly bound with #
18 copper wire.
This was the first time any 'firework' had ever scared me. I felt the blast wave. My parents informed me it rattled the house windows. Early the next
year I electrically detonated one about the same size within a 5 ft snowball rolled from the lawn. I can only describe the result as a muffled roar
and an visible increase in the ball's size. Slicing into the core, (which I found to be beautifully stained red) I found the snow compacted into an
icy center with a hole about 1/2 its diameter. I have often wondered since if this mixture is not detonatable - it is very potent.
My last experiment involved putting an even larger quantity in the fork of a tree on some waste land at night. It split the tree - bigger than a
sapling - into two parts.
Much later I found out by reading that this mixture is dangerous if allowed to get damp, that chlorate and sulphur don't mix safely and a few other
facts. Guess I was lucky. I never stored any mixture, always used it within an hour or so.
Blaster is right about grinding the KMnO4 as finely as possible for the 'best' results. But if you do it right, good old BP can give you a safer
banger but without that crisp crack or the flash, of course. Confining a fast burning mixure often will give a bang. But, to my mind, It's hard to
beat the permangante/ metal powder. But it is hazardous.
Regards,
DerAlte
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tito-o-mac
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Are all alumnium-based perchclorate stuff can be mixed and used to make rocket fuel?
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quicksilver
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| Quote: | Originally posted by tito-o-mac
Are all alumnium-based perchclorate stuff can be mixed and used to make rocket fuel? |
I not entirely sure of the question; however if you mean all materials that are perchlorates then the answer would be, no.
There are variables that would need to be addressed in all issues of propellant composition. Generalities of this nature are not a good idea. But I
might add that ramming a perchlorate composition is not a good idea....
[Edited on 9-7-2007 by quicksilver]
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rocket
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If your asking whether Al/KClo4 can be use as a propellant then yes it can but I highly advise you not too. I have read that Flash powder has been
used as propellant much like whistle is but the problem with using flash is it a lot more sensitive when pressed, don't even thick of ramming it.
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Zinc
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I know that this is off topic but I didn't want to start a new thread about that. I know that KMnO4 flashpowder is very unstable and that sulfur makes
it even more unstable. Is a mixture of KMnO4, S and powdered charcoal more stable? Can it spontaneously ignite? Is it safer to use? I made that
mixture two times. It doesn't burn very fast but it also doesn't burn very slow.
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DeAdFX
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Just stick with regular ol Black powder. In the field of pyrotechnics KMnO4 is only good for flash powder its mixes with fuels is less than useful.
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gregxy
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I made flash powder many times with KMnO4 or KClO3, Al
and S. I dont think that spontaneous combustion should be
a problem with small (gram sized) quantities. Most likely it
would slowly become inert, but I never saw this happen
even in material stored for months.
Friction is a bigger problem. Always grind the ingrediants
separately and the mix them using something soft like a
piece of paper or a rubber covered wire.
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.50AE
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Hello again
@DerAlte , Thank you for the nicely post.
I made some tests with KMnO4 mixtures, so I will report them here .
First, I mixed KMnO4, Sugar, and Al powder (8:4:2). It is flash powder, plus some sugar. I added it to slow the combustion, so to lower the risk of
serious accident, in case of self-ignition.
Next, I first tried to ignite it with a lighter, it was a little difficult, but it worked. After this, I put the rest of the mixture (3 grams) in my
bathroom in a safe&open container, so there were no risk of fire.
One week has passed, I returned to the bathroom and I took the container with the mixture. It was hardened into a hard bloc, but no problem. I took
the whole bloc of mixture from the container and I tried to ignite it with the same lighter again
The result was : Very easier ignition than before, that means much more fragile mixture.
Later, I tried another thing - I took a wooden stick and i started to grind the rest remaining quantity of the mixture in the container (~10mg).
The result was : Cracking sounds and sparks. That means the KMnO4 is igniting from friction, so be careful
The other day, I made 1g of fresh flash powder and I stored it for 5 days with the same way, the result was - very very easier ignition than the fresh
mixture.
Beacause it was in a bathroom, i think the wet air decomposes the KMnO4, i'm not sure.
That's all, hope i've been helpful .
So my advice is to do not store KMnO4 flash, or other mixtures. Use them immediately .
[Edited on 20-7-2007 by .50AE]
[Edited on 20-7-2007 by .50AE]
[Edited on 20-7-2007 by .50AE]
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rocket
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What ever you do don't add sugar to a KMnO4 comp, if you add sugar to the comp it will make it water sensitive meaning when water comes in contact
with it it will ignite. By putting the comp in the bathroom you made the risk of ignition even higher.
Its best just to mot use KMnO4 comps as the just to sensitive.
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.50AE
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I was doing some experiences with KMnO4, that's why I added sugar. Anyways, i'm not using this composition
By the way, the flash powder was igniting much easily after storing 5 days in the bathroom, so maybe the reaction from the wet is the same.
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Zinc
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I made a impact test with the KMnO4 black powder. I put too much fuel in it so it didn't burn as fast as a good mixture. I had to hit it strong with a
hammer to ignite it and always only a part of the mixture ignited. I will try it agani with a good ratio mixture.
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Zinc
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Today I tried it. It burned faster. But not as the first 2 times I tried it long time ago (arond 1 year). That time my and my friend used homemade
charcoal. Every mixture we made with that charcoal burned faster than the same mixture made with the bought. I didnt make any impact tests. Will
report when I do.
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Bert
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Home made charcoal cooked for a shorter time and at lower temperatures than commercial has a reputation for making faster/more powerful black powder
as well. The reason being retention of more volatiles, and a different structure than the longer/hotter cooked commercial product. Like the difference
between coal and graphite- One burns, the other is a great refractory.
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quicksilver
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Coal, when reduced to single digit micron particles (like 9um - air float size) works quite well in some compositions due to it's density. What is
interesting is that when speaking of BP there does appear to be a difference in origins of the charcoal [type].
I really don't remember who or what the specifics were but some pyrotechnic newsletter some years back had a demonstration of placing a 1/4 gram or
KCLO3 and 1/8 gr (or less) of sulfur on an anvil and striking it w/ a hammer. It made a loud & impressive report for it's weight and simplicity,
etc. Demonstrating the sensitivity of a simplistic composition & the need for safety w/ chlorates or some such deal. When the same was attempted
w/ BP there was no report; even when attempted in various circumstances & conditions.
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Squall
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Has anyone tried making flash powder with magnalium instead of aluminum.
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ordenblitz
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Certainly.. works just fine with perchlorates..... or chlorates if your brave.
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12AX7
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Meh, potassium chlorate hardly burns with it. If ignited suitably, sure, but why that should be necessary, I don't know. (Ooh, the opportunity for
chemical curiosity!)
Tim
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