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nux vomica
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[*] posted on 25-7-2013 at 05:48
Is this a new way to make AP


Hi everyone I recently got a small amount of this. oxysan (640x480).jpg - 91kB

So I measured out 12 ml of the peroxide mix and 12ml of acetone.
12 ml (800x600).jpg - 251kB

I then mixed them together.
mixed 24 ml (800x600).jpg - 259kB

I then put the mix in the freezer for one hour and mixed in 8ml of HCL.
hci mixed (800x600).jpg - 300kB

After 45 minutes in freezer.
after 45 min (800x600).jpg - 199kB

After one more hour in freezer then 11 hours in fridge.
12 hours in fridge (750x562).jpg - 109kB

The reaction mixture goes almost like a frozen Slurpee.
solid like a slurpee (800x600).jpg - 215kB

Final weight.
final weight (800x600).jpg - 270kB

To me it seems to be a lot better yield than plain peroxide but im no expert, thoughts everyone.
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[*] posted on 25-7-2013 at 06:30


I do not see anything really special in this. This oxysan product is just some acetic acid with hydrogen peroxide in water. Acetic acid and peroxyacetic acid will be in equilibrium.

You can make this product yourself if you take 30...35% hydrogen peroxide and for each 100 ml of hydrogen peroxide you add appr. 5 ml of concentrated acetic acid, mix and allow to stand for some time in a cool place.

Btw, do you feel safe with so much AP around in a dry state?? :o
To my opinion you are asking for trouble. What if this 6 grams of AP sets off while you are handling it? You easily loose a finger or two or even more with 6 grams of AP setting of unexpectedly. It only requires a little abuse to provoke a nasty accident.




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[*] posted on 25-7-2013 at 09:08


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
I do not see anything really special in this. This oxysan product is just some acetic acid with hydrogen peroxide in water. Acetic acid and peroxyacetic acid will be in equilibrium.

You can make this product yourself if you take 30...35% hydrogen peroxide and for each 100 ml of hydrogen peroxide you add appr. 5 ml of concentrated acetic acid, mix and allow to stand for some time in a cool place.

Btw, do you feel safe with so much AP around in a dry state?? :o
To my opinion you are asking for trouble. What if this 6 grams of AP sets off while you are handling it? You easily loose a finger or two or even more with 6 grams of AP setting of unexpectedly. It only requires a little abuse to provoke a nasty accident.


well true, but AP is kind of inreactive.




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[*] posted on 25-7-2013 at 11:03


Wat....

AP, as in TCAP is "inreactive."

By that you mean it doesnt have many compatibility issues? It doesnt matter though. It is very sensitive to various stimuli, and will happily maim and destroy...

[Edited on 25-7-2013 by Bot0nist]




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[*] posted on 25-7-2013 at 12:21


If you call AP "inreactive", what then must be "reactive" chemicals?

Don't fool yourself. AP has maimed many people already and I am afraid it will do so for many more :(




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[*] posted on 25-7-2013 at 16:59


I am aware of the dangers, but I was more intrested in why I seem to get a 450% increase of ap (1.4grm to 6.2grm) when the peroxacetic acid is present.
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[*] posted on 25-7-2013 at 17:05


Why solution is brown?
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[*] posted on 25-7-2013 at 18:13


Quote: Originally posted by papaya  
Why solution is brown?

I dont know it happens when I add the hcl
it happens with straight 50%peroxide and the peroxacetic acid mix hcl must have something contaminating it.

[Edited on 26-7-2013 by nux vomica]
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[*] posted on 26-7-2013 at 01:03


Did anyone see dark yellow ap ? why does happen like that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djcEJGnrQiY

[Edited on 26-7-2013 by Peroksit]




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[*] posted on 26-7-2013 at 01:08


Peroxyacetic acid is a stronger oxidizer the hydrogen peroxide. Considering the acetone can tautomerize under lower pH, probably much of the acetone is being oxidized to hydroxyacetone, and other oxidation products. Fortunately these oxidation products are water soluble, but one might want to be cautious of the possibility of a run-away reaction.

Just if anyone was wondering, "peroxyacetic acid" is basically just a mix of H2O2 and acetic acid in solution, but it forms an equilibrium that strongly favors peroxyacetic acid.

[Edited on 26-7-2013 by AndersHoveland]
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[*] posted on 26-7-2013 at 01:34


How about working with much smaller amounts? We don't want to promote procedures like this and have some poor kid mumbling references to this site with what's left of his face.


[Edited on 26-7-2013 by froot]




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[*] posted on 26-7-2013 at 04:08


doesnt matter if its willing to react, it will react with what the hell you have around
say a thickwalled steel tube, and your soft body tissue!!!
it reacts with itself, and its properties

i think this new aspect of peroxyacetic acid is pretty interesting, tho i cringed pretty well when i read 1 hour in freezer and then 'mix' HCl giving no further notice of mixing procedure
dumping it in just like that could be meaning 100% different result, forever.

also peroksit
that looks pretty safe doesnt it?
the deflagration IS safe
but ha.. h.. having that like.. 50g AP in free air just 1 metre from a decently big deflagration?! hahaha
is this turkish roulette?!




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[*] posted on 26-7-2013 at 04:26


Antiswat : yes turkish and yes it looks safe but why is it yellow :D may be non pure chemicals can be but there is h2o2 %50pure in here :D or it can be from sulfuric acid ? I don't know I don't have experinces with ap I asked to him but he didn't see it yet


[Edited on 26-7-2013 by Peroksit]




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[*] posted on 26-7-2013 at 06:34


Hi every one, i didn't post here to cause trouble, or to give some young kid information to blow himself up ,i mean you have a forum with a energetics section with a plethora of explosive compounds they could synthesize ,or they could possibly look at the other 3,300,000 results Google gives them by typing in acetone peroxide, i posted here because your banner says its supports the art and science of amateur experimentalism.


I am just curious that the reaction seems to work so well with the peroxyacetic acid, the first time i tried this synth i cooled every thing down in the freezer first, mixed the peroxyacetic acid and acetone and left it in the fridge overnight, when i checked it in the morning on the way to work there was nothing there, i was thinking the peroxyacetic acid would work like the hcl/sulphuric acid and catalyst the ap out .
When i got home that night the jar was still empty no ap , so i mixed in some hcl in just to see what would happen, and when i checked in a hour the jar was almost solid with ap. :o got rid of that in a hurry.

This is were the difference is, if i do the same reaction but with 50% peroxide and no peroxyacetic acid i can only get 1.4 gms at the most instead of 6.2gm with the peroxyacetic acid mix.

This post i read recently got me wondering what i have really got here, maybe the acetone and peroxyacetic acid are giving off something different.

quote=72729&tid=6342&author=franklyn]I'm thinking that given that Acetic acid readily forms Peracetic acid,
the ester of Acetic acid and Methanol, Methylacetate,
may form a peroxy trimer as well:
C9H18O9. TrimethylacetateTriperoxide.
Better oxygen balance should promote complete
disarrangement yielding 18 moles of gas , 9CO + 9H2


I have had under .3gm ap in a zip lock bag stored for 3 months to see if it becomes even more dangerious with age and haven't seen any changes yet, impact tests with mg amounts still show it needs a fairly hard impact to detonate and the ap? hasn't volatized at all in the bag, no sign of recrystallization.

Ps i don't really need to use ap as a primary, mercury fulminate potassium chlorate 80/20 is my 1st choice i just got the peroxyacetic acid mix and wondered if it would work. Cheers nuxy.



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[*] posted on 26-7-2013 at 11:06


An interesting experiment might be to take a small amount of that white solid and light it (e.g. take 100 mg). Compare this with lighting a sample of other acetone peroxide, made in the standard way. That of course can be an interesting thing. Maybe your compound is not acetone peroxide, but something else.

I do not say one should not do any experiments with acetone peroxide. I only want to warn about it. Too many people have been maimed by it. Acetone peroxide is quite an interesting compound on its own and it is remarkably easy to make. What irks me is that people make so much of it and introduce huge risks for themselves and for people around them.

So, I encourage you to continue experimenting with this and make comparisons with acetone peroxide made in other ways and to report the results over here. But at the same time I urge you to reduce the risk and scale things down to quantities of 0.5 grams or less.




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[*] posted on 26-7-2013 at 13:32


When you speak about comparison of yields you have to be 100% sure that all the experimental conditions were identical. At least I don't see how you figured out you hydrogen peroxides' concentrations, if it was just written on the bottle that's not enough, at least you have to do some titration (don't ask me for a procedure). Also if it were possible to find out if peracetic acid is used up in reaction it would be great.
And the color - does it smell of chlorine when you add HCL to peracetic acid? (always was curious if chloroacetones are able to form peroxide like acetone - that can explain weight gain :P ).
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[*] posted on 26-7-2013 at 23:09


Quote: Originally posted by papaya  
When you speak about comparison of yields you have to be 100% sure that all the experimental conditions were identical. At least I don't see how you figured out you hydrogen peroxides' concentrations, if it was just written on the bottle that's not enough, at least you have to do some titration (don't ask me for a procedure). Also if it were possible to find out if peracetic acid is used up in reaction it would be great.
And the color - does it smell of chlorine when you add HCL to peracetic acid? (always was curious if chloroacetones are able to form peroxide like acetone - that can explain weight gain :P ).


I will titrate the peroxides as soon as I get some potassium permanganate, never done it before so it will be interesting to do.

The reaction doesn't smell like chlorine when you add the hci, when the reaction is over there is a smell of acetic acid and a faint one of acetone. cheers nucks
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[*] posted on 27-7-2013 at 06:12


search the concentrating hydrogen peroxide threads. It can be titrated with MnO<sub>2</sub> and measuring gas evolution in a filled, inverted cylinder. Good luck, and be safe.



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[*] posted on 27-7-2013 at 07:51


1.4 to 6.2

that would be a 440% yield increase?!?!

this isnt something can go lost, as the additive is of what i remember reading in this thread easy to make

even if it isnt pure ap, it seems as it would be a very interesting compound you have created anyways??

also for storage: please dont use any screw lid / zip lock bag
the best would be a plastic container thats relatively soft with a lid you just CLICK on top of it
otherwise crystals may deposit on the opening and yeah bad stuff will happen when you decide to check up on it




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 27-7-2013 at 12:30


How 6g yield out of 12ml is fantastic? And 8ml acid is suspiciously too much, that I think author doesn't know what it serves for. That also can be why color may appear due to side reactions. Also I suspect when comparing yields author didn't let both reactions to complete, so one can only state that "such a method seems faster.." .
Sorry If I'm not right.

[Edited on 27-7-2013 by papaya]
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[*] posted on 27-7-2013 at 14:17


There is a hard complex of H2O2 and urea- trade name "Hydroperit" Mix it with acetone and put few drops of HCl. After a while wash with water and dry.



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[*] posted on 30-8-2013 at 06:48


would it be possible to make AP from benzoyl peroxide and acetone?

this would need to be performed at 5*C max tho, im not sharp on organic chemistry, but if the benzoyl bonding is weaker than the acetone bonding (ion?) this should somewhat be possible, or does it need pure H2O2 with catalyst?

i mean.. carbamide peroxide is used for teeth whitening, and benzoyl peroxide is used for acne removal




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Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 30-8-2013 at 08:52


mix ap with guncotton disolved into acetone this is more stable and good for worc primary exploziv
:)
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[*] posted on 1-9-2013 at 11:44


Very interesting. You should compare the sensitivity with ordinary AP and post the results.



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[*] posted on 2-9-2013 at 21:58


It'll be interesting for me to know if this volatile peroxide compound also poses any inhalation health hazard?
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