Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
Author: Subject: Tartrate synth
Antiswat
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1345
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline

Mood: dangerously practical

[*] posted on 16-8-2013 at 03:54
Tartrate synth


somehow i got on to searching for synthesis of potassium tartrate
i didnt find anything
neither did i with calcium tartrate, or tartaric acid

ive read several times that its a byproduct of wine fermentation, but point is
is there really no way to actually SYNTHESIZE a simple compound like ... just ANY tartrate??

i see the idea in getting bulk amounts when making massive amounts of wine
but, how can this not be possible to actually synthesize? never heard of anything alike, there should be some route to synthesizing some tartrate, we are in 2013?!?


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=21987&...
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=95...

these threads mentions something about tartrates, but its nowhere near the synthesis of the compound or tartrate ions preparation




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Dany
National Hazard
****




Posts: 482
Registered: 3-8-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 16-8-2013 at 04:34


Hello Antiswat,

tartaric acid can be prepared by hydrating maleic acid (in the presence of an oxidant).

also maleic acid can be prepared from furfural, and furfural is prepared from xylose or xylan.

these are a collection of articles showing the preparation of each intermediate.

Dany.

Attachment: Svnthesis of Tartaric Acid.pdf (965kB)
This file has been downloaded 981 times

Attachment: Synthesis of maleic acid from renewable resources Catalytic oxidation of furfural in liquid media with dioxygen.pdf (195kB)
This file has been downloaded 1063 times

Attachment: Synthesis of Furfural from Xylose and Xylan.pdf (227kB)
This file has been downloaded 890 times

View user's profile View All Posts By User
weiming1998
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 616
Registered: 13-1-2012
Location: Western Australia
Member Is Offline

Mood: Amphoteric

[*] posted on 16-8-2013 at 04:50


Well, technically you could synthesize tartrates. It's just that nobody ever bothers to do so, since it can be easily brought from any supermarket/ordered without any restrictions from across the net. Synthesizing it would be far more difficult than buying it, because although it is a relatively simple compound, it is still quite difficult to make from scratch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartaric_acid) and would most likely require expensive/difficult to acquire reagents in order to do so.

[Edited on 16-8-2013 by weiming1998]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Antiswat
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1345
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline

Mood: dangerously practical

[*] posted on 18-8-2013 at 06:49


i see with that many steps it might be hard to do in small scale

it is however possible to do on large scale, as xylan is simple plant cell walls, so starting point is a raw material, thats pretty neat
im saving these if i should ever happen to escape this horrendous country and find myself a better place where i could fx. make tartaric acid from a raw material
thanks alot, Dany


but yes, nobody ever bothers to synthesize this because its so easy to get a hold of in stores, but... theres no fun in just buying it, youknow
it would be relatively costly to synthesize it, but to account for the costs you can scale it up




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
View user's profile View All Posts By User
blogfast25
Thought-provoking Teacher
*****




Posts: 10334
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Old Blighty
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-8-2013 at 08:42


Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
[...] but yes, nobody ever bothers to synthesize this because its so easy to get a hold of in stores, but... theres no fun in just buying it, youknow


Actually, for someone who needs it for some specific reason, being able to buy it is FUN because it saves one much time, compared to embarking on a synthesis that is time consuming and uncertain in it's outcome (depending on one's expertise).

You don't bake your own bread all the time either, do you?

It's largely about how you want to use your time: make the tartaric acid yourself or use bought stuff for interesting things.




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Antiswat
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1345
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline

Mood: dangerously practical

[*] posted on 20-8-2013 at 05:24


well i can buy KNO3, and i can buy K2CO3
but surely if i had the place for it, i would of spend alot of energy collecting K2CO3 rich plants, drying them, burning them off and thereafter collecting the K2CO3, then make KNO3 out of it from there
there is something interesting in seeing a large batch of crystals, and knowing that you made it all from scratch

the more easy it is to find the compounds, alike xylan, the easier it will be to scale up

thats why i would start off with creating the most simple compounds if i was living another place, make it all from scratch, perhaps buy OTC simple compounds aswell to compare homemade with

surely if you have some synthesis that you need it for RIGHT HERE and RIGHT NOW then i do see the idea in just buying it




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
View user's profile View All Posts By User
blogfast25
Thought-provoking Teacher
*****




Posts: 10334
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Old Blighty
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 20-8-2013 at 08:30


Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
but surely if i had the place for it, i would of spend alot of energy collecting K2CO3 rich plants, drying them, burning them off and thereafter collecting the K2CO3, then make KNO3 out of it from there


You are kind of making my point for me: whilst it's fun (and educational) to make your own stuff, all kinds of practical restrictions often make buying the better option.

Synthesising a bit of tartaric acid is great if you just want to see how that works but if you need higher quantities and of some guaranteed quality, you'll just buy it.




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Antiswat
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1345
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline

Mood: dangerously practical

[*] posted on 21-8-2013 at 07:44


weeell yes i agree if you really want to have nothing but success you do buy it, but assuming that it would be decently easy to recover in high quality by recrystallization, just like KNO3

guess theres nothing more to discuss tho..




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
View user's profile View All Posts By User
phlogiston
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1341
Registered: 26-4-2008
Location: Neon Thorium Erbium Lanthanum Neodymium Sulphur
Member Is Offline

Mood: pyrophoric

[*] posted on 21-8-2013 at 13:36


i think it would be fun to repeat the revolutionary experiment by Louis Pasteur, who discovered in 1846 that crystallising the sodium ammonium salt of synthetic tartaric acid (yes, then already they could make it chemically), you get two types of crystals that are each others mirror image.
He separated the crystals with tweezers under a microscope and was able to prove they were actually different compounds with opposite optical activity, laying the foundation for our understanding of stereochemistry.

BTW, the synthetic tartaric acid was called 'racemic acid' at the time (racemus = grapes in Latin), which led to our current word for a racemic mixture.




-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Marvin
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 994
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 21-8-2013 at 14:13


Furfural is quite nasty I read recently, and that shouldn't have come as a surprise, it has an acrolein type structure. A much safer route would be to make maleic anhydride from malic acid by sublimation. Malic acid can be bought or extracted from apples.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Antiswat
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1345
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline

Mood: dangerously practical

[*] posted on 22-8-2013 at 06:15


hm.. i didnt look up the details of the seperate compounds, that might be a good thing to keep in mind

but a shortcut using apples might be a nice thing, if theyre somewhat easily available, however..


anyhow, that seems as being something i would need to get more into technically, not sure if i understand it at all what shows difference, i have ammonium tartrate laying around of what i remember.. perhaps i dont..? :D
from that it should be possible to make potassium tartrate easily




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
View user's profile View All Posts By User

  Go To Top