Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
Author: Subject: Legal trouble
golfpro
Banned





Posts: 179
Registered: 18-5-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: Cap Sensitive

[*] posted on 26-8-2013 at 17:01
Legal trouble


So I've always been curious about rockets, explosions etc. I've been reading and experimenting for about 6 months now. I've made TATP and HMTD once each in about mg quantities. I like the entire process of creating whatever just as much as seeing it go off. I also like the challenge and thinking/knowledge it requires in every way.

Where is the line from enjoying it for what it is and the chemistry, to being a perceived threat and possibly getting "a knock on the door." It's such a small part of what I do and I'll give it up and forget about it all together if I am in danger of facing legal troubles, I don't care about it enough to risk facing problems, because you have to think that this forum gets watched.

I would say I have taken more than enough safety measures as far as lowering the risk for injury as much as possible, I have read a lot, know a lot what to do and what not to do, , but I am far from cavalier about anything.

Any opinion?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Aurum
Harmless
*




Posts: 34
Registered: 19-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-8-2013 at 17:14


As the rules vary immensely around the world, it might be a good idea if you indicated where you reside.

Mike.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
golfpro
Banned





Posts: 179
Registered: 18-5-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: Cap Sensitive

[*] posted on 26-8-2013 at 17:31


USA
View user's profile View All Posts By User
ElectroWin
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 224
Registered: 5-3-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-8-2013 at 17:45


there are regulatory bodies, and certificates to obtain, that would legitimize your hobby in the eyes of the law. for example, a friend of mine who does flame effects shows has appropriate paperwork to show anyone who turns up at the door. typically, such stuff is posted conspicuously near the entrance of the building.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Pyro
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1305
Registered: 6-4-2012
Location: Gent, Belgium
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-8-2013 at 17:47


Even that differs state by state.
this kind of belongs in ''legal and societal issues'' there have been a few threads about this there.
how big are these bangs? do you have many neighbors? can they see you doing these things?

soon you will probably go off bangs and move on to other things. my last bang was a few weeks ago by accident when making WP. before that I can't even remember!




all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. :D
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Dany
National Hazard
****




Posts: 482
Registered: 3-8-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-8-2013 at 21:04


You should be optimist if you enter jail...

first you will have the chance to eat, drink and sleep for free. Also, you will have plenty of time to access free internet so you can read topics and theoretical work on energetic materials. You will have strong theoretical background on energetic materials (and hydrodynamics of detonation) when you leave jail, so you can start experimenting with more sophisticated explosive materials :D

Dany.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
Thread Moved
27-8-2013 at 06:26
gregxy
National Hazard
****




Posts: 421
Registered: 26-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 27-8-2013 at 10:29


This topic comes up over and over.

The answer is:

There are hundreds of laws covering chemicals, destructive devices, firearms etc. So if LE really wants to convict you of something they can. (Seriously, a pound of KNO3 and some charcoal is enough).

On the other hand locking up harmless, productive (ie tax paying) people does not benefit the state or anyone else.

So, It comes down to a judgement call and depends on how you are viewed in your community.

If you are a 40 year old housewife with 3 kids, are on good terms with your neighbors and the local police, you can run a meth lab in your basement.

If you are an unemployed 20 year old male Muslim, you better leave this site now.

Making enough noises or funny smells so that one of your neighbors calls the police is a serious problem. The police need to cover their asses, so they will come and look around and anything suspicious (chemicals, electrical equipment, solvents) will necessitate further investigation. You are unlikely to be convicted of anything, but the hassle could cost thousands of dollars.

There are a few reports of purchases of lab equipment triggering an investigation, but these seem to be through the DEA and if you look clean and don't have a meth lab you will probably be OK. (The DEA probably KNOWS what to look for where as a local LEO who has been watching too much TV may be overly suspicious of lab items).
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bismuthate
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 803
Registered: 28-9-2013
Location: the island of stability
Member Is Offline

Mood: self reacting

[*] posted on 28-9-2013 at 12:10


just don't make the explosions too loud or else someone's calling the cops
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Ragnar
Harmless
*




Posts: 6
Registered: 7-10-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 21-12-2013 at 13:05


If you live in a neighborhood, I think it'd be best to keep quiet. They'll turn that into a mess very quickly.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
DrAldehyde
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 82
Registered: 12-1-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 7-2-2014 at 20:50


Where is the line between enjoying chemistry and getting a knock on the door...

http://www.redding.com/news/2014/feb/07/fbi-investigators-sw...

...at least a few meters behind this guys hospital bed.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
GoldGuy
Harmless
*




Posts: 45
Registered: 24-11-2013
Location: Toronto, ON
Member Is Offline

Mood: Not sure if awake or in a dream where Im trying to fully awake.

[*] posted on 8-2-2014 at 03:07


Is the sound of explosions (other than the ones you make) an occasional occurance in your part of USA? If not then ofcourse you will be raided. Why not just let them off far from where people (especially yourself) reside?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Antiswat
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1256
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline

Mood: dangerously practical

[*] posted on 8-2-2014 at 03:30


well dont do it at day, if you plan it well as in, late at night and best take distance to houses so nobody will feel the vibrations then you have pretty much done as much as you can in order to not annoy any people
anyhow, dont get entangled with the authorities, they dont give a fuck, they just want to look like heroes if they get the chance, and thats probably gonna be their main reason to want to bust you
dont drag attention
stick to the shadows

dont blow up several grammes of ETN on the middle of the road infront of your cop neighbours house, in the middle of the day - i cannot think of a worse attempt to get busted, perhaps inside his house?? lol

perhaps in serbia people would clap witnessing HE's going bang, but not in the 'western civilized world'




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Jekyll
Harmless
*




Posts: 14
Registered: 3-3-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 8-2-2014 at 23:31


If one likes rockets and explosions, many states have pyrotechnic guilds that offer excellent learning opportunities, places to do licensed and insured shoots and much more for the relatively low price of membership. The Pyrotechnics Guild International has a "banging" annual convention in a different state every year.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
roXefeller
National Hazard
****




Posts: 412
Registered: 9-9-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: 220 221 whatever it takes

[*] posted on 9-2-2014 at 19:38


Quote: Originally posted by GoldGuy  
Is the sound of explosions (other than the ones you make) an occasional occurance in your part of USA? If not then ofcourse you will be raided. Why not just let them off far from where people (especially yourself) reside?


That's my neck of the woods. Haven't heard it as much lately with the ammo famine, but I always get a proud chest when I hear the neighbors rattling off their handguns. It's good to know the stuff their made of. Similarly, does the noise of a small charge sound more like a rifle, shotgun, or handgun? Honest question.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Metacelsus
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2423
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Cambridge, MA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble

[*] posted on 10-2-2014 at 08:12


From my (very limited) experience, shotgun.



As below, so above.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
GoldGuy
Harmless
*




Posts: 45
Registered: 24-11-2013
Location: Toronto, ON
Member Is Offline

Mood: Not sure if awake or in a dream where Im trying to fully awake.

[*] posted on 10-2-2014 at 08:16


Sounds like fireworks.... but yeah shotgun
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: Fluorine radical

[*] posted on 10-2-2014 at 08:23


I set off a few grams of flash underwater, several days ago, I thought the water would muffle the sound- it didn't. I saw a police car drive past my house about 5 minutes later. Whoever called them apparently didn't know exactly where the sound came from, because the police didn't come to my house. I'm not going to try that again...



View user's profile View All Posts By User
DrAldehyde
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 82
Registered: 12-1-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 15-2-2014 at 08:53


Quote: Originally posted by DrAldehyde  
Where is the line between enjoying chemistry and getting a knock on the door...

http://www.redding.com/news/2014/feb/07/fbi-investigators-sw...

...at least a few meters behind this guys hospital bed.


Here is a follow up to this story, the authorities are going to destroy the house.

http://www.redding.com/news/2014/feb/14/more-residents-evacu...

I'll give a brief synopsis in case the links end up broken. This 64 yo guy blew his hand off a few days ago. He claimed to have been making rocket fuel. Police arrested him and evacuated his close neighbors. At the time he was reported to have a large quantity of reloading supplies, primers, gunpowder, as well as explosive making chemicals.

After further investigation police reported that he had 60 pounds of explosives including HMTD and explosive precursors. Due to the instability of the explosives, the authorities have decided to raze the house as well as several outbuildings. The neighbors in a 2000 ft (600m) radius have been evacuated since the initial explosion, and are to remain evacuated until after the burn.

The authorities plan to excavate several inches of topsoil from the property to be processed as waste. I think the take home here is obvious, it is really easy to get the supplies and information to make all sorts of interesting chemicals, but to do so without proper experience and equipment can end up destroying your life. Aside from the missing hand, it is clear that the authorities are going to financially ruin this fellow, and then send him to jail.

I don't want to come across as lecturing, but I know if I had access as a teen to the information available today, I doubt if I would have made it this far. As it is now, I don't have the trust in my lab skills nor the place to set stuff off, so as fun as it may be, I'll stick to the study of energetic and the practice of less energetic chemistry.

[Edited on Feb-15-2014 by DrAldehyde]

[Edited on Feb-16-2014 by DrAldehyde]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
Thread Split
15-2-2014 at 19:24
roXefeller
National Hazard
****




Posts: 412
Registered: 9-9-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: 220 221 whatever it takes

[*] posted on 20-2-2014 at 19:14


The man is D Ray East, a resident at 9021 Chaparral Drive, Redding, CA 96001.

Seeing as he could have been one of us, or we could've been in his shoes, I'm going to mail over a donation to help with his costs. Hopefully it will find him.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Praxichys
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1022
Registered: 31-7-2013
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Coprecipitated

[*] posted on 21-2-2014 at 06:52


I hate to be the black sheep here but if one is at all experienced in energetic materials, one would never make or use - much less store - HMTD, let alone sixty pounds of explosives.

Honestly, it's probably better for his wife or anyone who ever visits this guy's house that he gets his stuff burned. It's people like him that put legitimate chemicals on watch lists. You would think at 64 years old he would know better. Endangering others in a lab as disheveled as that? I'm glad nobody else was hurt.




View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
DrAldehyde
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 82
Registered: 12-1-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 21-2-2014 at 09:58


Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
I hate to be the black sheep here but if one is at all experienced in energetic materials, one would never make or use - much less store - HMTD, let alone sixty pounds of explosives.

Honestly, it's probably better for his wife or anyone who ever visits this guy's house that he gets his stuff burned. It's people like him that put legitimate chemicals on watch lists. You would think at 64 years old he would know better. Endangering others in a lab as disheveled as that? I'm glad nobody else was hurt.


I agree with you completely, if you blow yourself up, you were not doing it right.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
roXefeller
National Hazard
****




Posts: 412
Registered: 9-9-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: 220 221 whatever it takes

[*] posted on 21-2-2014 at 13:03


There are actually multiple people that age on this forum, and for the better because they have the maturity and experience that isn't present in teens and twenty-somethings.

I don't really trust the reporting of the media on the list of what he had, they are generally trying to exacerabate the story. If he had 60 lbs of HMTD, he wouldn't have got off on a plea deal for a misdemeanor charge and left on probation. The press says he had 60 lbs of HMTD and explosive precursors. Perhaps they counted some of his smokeless powder from his reloading, or the blackpowder he might use for the rocket engines, or the 17 lbs that two gallons of muriatic acid would weigh. Read into it like you might with patent disclosures, they aren't giving you the whole truth and you need to read between the lines.

Accidents do mean something went wrong, but it isn't anathema to our hobby, many accidents are documented here for the benefit of others. Many more happen without being shared. We recover, share in the loss, and move forward together. You wouldn't know to stay away from some combinations unless someone discovered, by accident or not, the danger and shared it for others.

This particular man has confessed his accident, a hot glue gun set of the solid fuel. Many people use hot glue guns with pyrotechnics, hopefully this will serve as a warning. Bad stuff happens, and it's sad. Don't call him inferior because he was the victim.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
jock88
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 505
Registered: 13-12-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 21-2-2014 at 15:59



I second that.
If he has 50 lbs of clay for making rocket nozzles then he had 50 lbs of a precursor for making deadly weapons. (laughable).
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Metacelsus
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2423
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Cambridge, MA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble

[*] posted on 21-2-2014 at 20:22


Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller  

Many people use hot glue guns with pyrotechnics, hopefully this will serve as a warning.


:o

I hope so too. I fail to understand how people could think hot glue guns on pyrotechnics would be a good idea.

Of course, they are probably the same people who mess around with peroxides. Age does not necessarily mean wisdom!

I pity the fool.




As below, so above.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
hyfalcon
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1004
Registered: 29-3-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 22-2-2014 at 02:46


Hot glue guns are used in shell construction for pyrotechnics all the time. Proper precautions MUST be followed. Cut the top out of a solvent can and use that as a holster for you hot glue gun. ONLY have it plugged in when heating then disconnect it FROM THE PLUG not the on/off switch when you go to squirt a dollop of glue. They can be used, just cautiously.
View user's profile View All Posts By User

  Go To Top