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Author: Subject: TNT - chlorate composition
AndersHoveland
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[*] posted on 1-10-2013 at 00:01


Do not forget, this was before the Haber process. Most of that NaNO3 likely came from fossilized bird excrement in Chile ("Chile saltpetre"), or the more recent Birkeland–Eyde process, by passing air through an electric arc and neutralizing the nitrogen oxides with solution of soda.

Again, NaNO3 is a really terrible oxidizer. Yes, KNO3 is the main ingredient in Black powder, but only because it has been finely crystalized throughout the powder. Ever tried just burning black powder that has not been pre-soaked and dried? No matter how finely ground and well-mixed, it only burns and flares, and very difficult to get to burn in small quantities. So KNO3 may be suitable for pyrotechnic compositions, but for actual detonation, that is a different matter. Detonation proceeds best when the fuel and oxidizer are mixed on a molecular level, rather than a simple mix of two separate solid phases. For a composition of Sodatol, the detonation velocity must really suffer, in fact it is probably not much more than if one mixed TNT with an inert powder. Yet it will contribute oxygen to help burn off some of the TNT, even if the decomposition of NaNO3 is not very energetic.

The only reason it was used is that NaNO3 was cheap.
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caterpillar
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[*] posted on 1-10-2013 at 05:06


Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  

Yes, KNO3 is the main ingredient in Black powder, but only because it has been finely crystalized throughout the powder.


Not true. NaNO3 is hygroscopic, this is the main reason, why KNO3 is used in BP.




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Ral123
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[*] posted on 1-10-2013 at 05:33


I think the lower density of the KNO3 somewhat contributes to the flame speed. I think the very low hygroscopicity is a must for a serious application.
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caterpillar
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[*] posted on 1-10-2013 at 14:04


AN is hygroscopic, but it is widely used in serious application. But powder and explosive are different things and there are different requirements for them. BP must be dry, but pressed NC must be slightly wet. Generally, some amount of water in explosive often increases its performance.



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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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[*] posted on 2-10-2013 at 10:39


Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
choosing between chlorate and perchlorate i will choose the perchlorate. Sodium perchlorate is more dense than potassium chlorate (2.5 g/cm3 vs 2.34 g/cm3). perchlorate are better than chlorate when safety is an issue. also sodium perchlorate has a low melting point (130°C) compared to potassium chlorate (356°C) which make easier to melt the sodium perchlorate compositions
Dany.

-Dany

Would like just to correct a small mistake that Potassium perchlorate is denser,
KClO4 Have a density of 2.524
NaClO4 Have a density of 2.499

NaClO4 Have a melting point of 468 degree celsius, rather than the 130 you mentioned.

The 130 is for the hydrated sodium perchlorate, which is rather very inefficient compared to anhydrous.





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Antiswat
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[*] posted on 3-10-2013 at 07:42


infact xClO3 with vaseline (petroleum jelly) is used under the name 'Cheddite C' its very often used by amateur uncertified demolitions experts, to put it profesionally..
also xClO3 and sugar is used, it have been described as 'white powder' in a seemingly old scanned book on field manufactured explosives i have laying around.. this composition does go off when hammered throughly, sensitivity increased alot if a percentage of aluminium powder is added, oxides would probably do the same, perhaps both.. yes?

i recall having seen HDN mixed with KClO4, to improve the energy release and OB, i cant get data on this as the guy sadly went totally and entirely gone all of a sudden.. i recall something around 80 20 HDN KClO4
he did not get to show any comparative tests but only a 20g charge being setoff with no targets or anything, but he said by his experience he could feel there was a greater energy release




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 3-10-2013 at 08:19


I despise hygroscopic energetics. Why would you use expensive KClO4 with HDN, to make one? Why ruin KClO3 with sugar? HDN is good party with AN. KClO3 with wax. KClO3, KClO4, KNO3 is good party with TNT, AN is good party with hydrazine.
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killswitch
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[*] posted on 3-10-2013 at 15:11


What about TNT/NH4ClO4?
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[*] posted on 4-10-2013 at 04:19


Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
What about TNT/NH4ClO4?

For some reasons, NH4ClO4 is not used in explosive compositions as widely, as AN. I met one such composition (I do not remember proportions): NH4ClO4, RDX, Al and small amount of paraffin. It was designed special for blusting hard rocks.




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killswitch
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[*] posted on 4-10-2013 at 05:00


Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
What about TNT/NH4ClO4?

For some reasons, NH4ClO4 is not used in explosive compositions as widely, as AN. I met one such composition (I do not remember proportions): NH4ClO4, RDX, Al and small amount of paraffin. It was designed special for blusting hard rocks.


Might have something to do with the poisonous fumes given off.
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[*] posted on 4-10-2013 at 07:34


NH4ClO4 mixtures would have good energy density, specially with Al added, but brisance suffers heavily. NH4ClO4 has lower velocity on it's own then AN. So who needs this expensive, chemically aggressive mixture witch is outperformed by high power blast jelly anyway.
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AndersHoveland
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[*] posted on 4-10-2013 at 09:07


Just to mention again, it might not be possible to get sodium/potassium perchlorate mixtures to detonate, or at least it may likely be much more difficult than the chlorate. Although perchlorate contains more oxygen, it is also more stable and less reactive chemically.

Normally simple fuel-oxidizer mixtures cannot be detonated (at least solid mixtures), but chlorate is somewhat of an exception to this because it gives up its oxygen so easily. Nevertheless, the detonation velocity of chlorate-wax compositions is still very low. In fact, besides the use as a cheap filler to create shrapnel, I doubt it has any practical use at all. Probably not much more effective than Black powder. The KClO3 and fuel are in separate mechanical phases, not part of the same molecule, and KClO3 cannot decompose by itself, so that greatly limits the reaction rate.

Whether the oxidizer is incorporated into the actual crystal structure on a molecular level makes a big difference. So combine the fact that the perchlorate oxidizer is in a separate phase (the sodium or potassium salt) and the fact that it has a higher decomposition temperature and is not quite as reactive in fast combustion, and it may be that a simple mixture with wax is not sufficient to propagate detonation, like it is with chlorate.

This is why it may take a much higher ratio of TNT in the composition if sodium perchlorate was used, making perchlorate more of an additive, rather than a main component.

Again, this only applies to Na or K perchlorate mixes one is trying to get to actually detonate. For simply pyrotechnic uses, even flash powder, potassium perchlorate works quite well.

[Edited on 4-10-2013 by AndersHoveland]




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[*] posted on 4-10-2013 at 14:22


Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  

The KClO3 and fuel are in separate mechanical phases, not part of the same molecule, and KClO3 cannot decompose by itself, so that greatly limits the reaction rate.
[Edited on 4-10-2013 by AndersHoveland]


Small correction- KClO3 is an endothermic compound and therefore it can decompose by itself- even pure KClO3 can explode. Situation is just opposite with KClO4- this one is an exothermic compound and can explode no more than NaCl. But mixtures with KClO3 are much more sensitive than mixtures, based on AN. KClO4 on the other hand is more expensive than AN and produces smaller volume of gases. This is why mixtures with KClO3 have some interest only for us, poor amateurs- there is a simple route to aforementioned oxidizer ( Ca(ClO)2 -> Ca(ClO3)2 -> KClO3 ).




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