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cryomancer
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Nitrocellulose propellant
I have been wondering for a while if NC is plausible as a propellant for large objects like fireworks shells etc.
but if you confine NC doesn't it explode?
Yet i think that i have heard that NC is used in a ring shaped format to be used as a booster charge in the 60mm and
81mm mortars that the military operates. Is this true and if not then could someone figure out what those rings are as my internet searches have come
up dry so far.
Thanks, CM
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zwt
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Quote: Originally posted by careysub  |
The Disney Corporation uses nitrocellulose-based fireworks for their (thrice nightly) shows to drastically reduce air pollution from them.
Homeowners around Disneyland (who bought their homes there decades after the park opened and started the shows) have on occasion filed complaints
and/or lawsuits against Disney for air pollution, but the Air Quality Management District has run tests and found that Disney's new fireworks don't
pollute the air.
The cleaner burning compositions give better colors too with lower amounts of metals. |
That thread was posted to just last week. I suggest practicing your Google-fu.
[Edited on 14-8-2016 by zwt]
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NeonPulse
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There is a massive thread or two here on picric acid. You would find it to be less sensitive than you may think. It takes quite a kick to set it off.
I'm not sure how much of a search you have done but in the forums library here you should check out a book The chemistry of powder and explosives by
Tenney Davis or the 4 urbanski volumes. These books have a load of info on picric acid and other compounds. the books are free here in the SM
library.
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Bert
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Threads Merged
14-8-2016 at 18:57 |
Bert
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Threads Merged
15-8-2016 at 03:50 |
Tricka90
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| Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse | | There is a massive thread or two here on picric acid. You would find it to be less sensitive than you may think. It takes quite a kick to set it off.
I'm not sure how much of a search you have done but in the forums library here you should check out a book The chemistry of powder and explosives by
Tenney Davis or the 4 urbanski volumes. These books have a load of info on picric acid and other compounds. the books are free here in the SM
library. |
Thanks a lot for the advice, I downloaded the books you suggested and they definitely provide tons of informations about Picric Acid! However I just
can't find the threads on the forum using Search function, can you please give me the links?
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Tricka90
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| Quote: Originally posted by MineMan | ANFO is cap sensitive when it is crushed, is yours? Also did you use 6% diesel? Add 2%-5% Al powder... that will help. Unfortunately SADS has a low
VOD...
One gram of SADS, what are your yields, that would cost me about 2 grams of silver nitrate? |
Thank you for the suggestion, I didn't know that using Al powder would make ANFO more sensitive. Maybe it's just that I don't know much about ANFO
properties and proper use yet, do you know any good source of information (maybe a good book) about ANFO?
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Bert
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| Quote: |
Maybe it's just that I don't know much about ANFO properties and proper use yet, do you know any good source of information (maybe a good book) about
ANFO
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There is a WONDERFUL source on this!
http://bfy.tw/7Dyd
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Bert
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Yes, that WAS snarky.
The last 3 threads from EM which I merged to "quick question, short answer" were all from a brand new user name, who immediately started new threads
in EM on VERY heavily previously discussed subjects, without doing the bare minimum of research on their own. And they are making hash of legit short
questions.
Sorry, if you do not show sources/links to how you came up with your information on whatever topic led to your question-
Or show credible lab notes documenting a procedure you claim to have performed and have questions about/want feedback on, with stoichiometry, source
of information you started from, your own calculations, photos, video, etc.-
This type of zero effort thread will now be sent straight to beginnings, or detritus.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tricka90 | | Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse | | There is a massive thread or two here on picric acid. You would find it to be less sensitive than you may think. It takes quite a kick to set it off.
I'm not sure how much of a search you have done but in the forums library here you should check out a book The chemistry of powder and explosives by
Tenney Davis or the 4 urbanski volumes. These books have a load of info on picric acid and other compounds. the books are free here in the SM
library. |
Thanks a lot for the advice, I downloaded the books you suggested and they definitely provide tons of informations about Picric Acid! However I just
can't find the threads on the forum using Search function, can you please give me the links? |
Hint ... picric acid is also called TNP or 2,4,6-trinitrophenol.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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James Ikanov
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Does anyone know of a viable way to, on the small scale, compress gasses, for example for a CO2 cylinder? I have interest in pursuing an N2O based
explosive (N2O is chhheeeeaaaappp and unrestricted) but I cannot seem to devise a reliable way to keep it under pressure in the presence of a fuel.
Whipped cream cartridges seem like a viable jumping off point, as do beer keg charging systems, but I can't find much by way of a container that could
hold up the pressures required and still intake the material. I have a bit of an understanding of pressure vessels but nothing leaps out to me as a
good candidate for the purpose of condensing N2O.
I also considered liquefying the N2O into a liquid before hand but dry ice falls just short of being able to keep it liquid. I think a strong coolant
might assist in keep in condensed while piping it or pouring it through a cooled funnel but that seems more like an afterthought. I suppose an
alternative would be to find a method to cool below the melting point but that seems like it might take special equipment.
“To do good work one must eat well, be well housed, have one's fling from time to time, smoke one's pipe, and drink one's coffee in peace” -
Vincent Van Gogh
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MineMan
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Astrolite G
Is Astrolite G legit...? I just don't see how hydrazine could raise the VOD of AN more than NM...?
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PHILOU Zrealone
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NH4NO3(s) + N2H4(l) <==> N2H5NO3(s) + NH3(g)
Thus equilibrium reaction...
Hydrazine nitrate is more sensitive to shock and displays a VOD of 8900 m/s at max density vs the poor 3500 m/s of ammonium nitrate!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Dornier 335A
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If you want VoD, hydrogen is the way to go. Basically, water increases the explosive gamma (adiabatic index) which gives a higher VoD for a given
detonation pressure. Hydrogen rich explosives like hydrazine nitrate, hydrazine nitrate/hydrazine mixtures etc. have considerably higher VoD at a
given density than say PETN or RDX.
For example:
21/79 Hydrazine/Hydrazine Nitrate
Density: 1.44 g/cm3
VoD: 8600 m/s (Mader)
Compared to:
RDX
Density: 1.46 g/cm3
VoD: 7600 m/s (Hobbs and Baer)
Even octanitrocubane at 1.44 g/cm3 reaches only 7990 m/s according to my calculations. So hydrogen is quite good!
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MineMan
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Ahh...
Why don't I see anyone using this compound... especially if it is a binary explosive and no synthesis is required....
I am guessing because of the toxicity of Hydrazine?
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PHILOU Zrealone
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You need dry N2H4 what is dangerous because flamable, volatile, endothermic, toxic, corrosive (to glass and to some metals what favourize
decomposition) and vapour is explosive in a very large % with air, it burns very hot.
Dry N2H4 is expensive and regulated.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Tricka90
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Methanol in Ammonium Nitrate synthesis
This is the procedure for synthesising Ammonium Nitrate found in The Preparatory Manual Of Explosives. As you can read, after reacting nitric acid
with ammonia, it suggests to recristallize ammonium nitrate from methanol, but only if it is going to be alloyed with picric acid or similar. In other
synthesis procedures I've found, ammonium nitrate is made just by reacting nitric acid with ammonia, without the methanol recrystallization at the
end. In others ethanol is used instead of methanol. Do you know what exactly methanol/ethanol should do? I'm wondering if maybe is used to remove any
substance which can react with picric acid, producing unstable products, or to dilute any impurity found in commercial ammonia.
[Edited on 17-8-2016 by Tricka90]
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ecos
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tricka90 |
This is the procedure for synthesising Ammonium Nitrate found in The Preparatory Manual Of Explosives. As you can read, after reacting nitric acid
with ammonia, it suggests to recristallize ammonium nitrate from methanol, but only if it is going to be alloyed with picric acid or similar. In other
synthesis procedures I've found, ammonium nitrate is made just by reacting nitric acid with ammonia, without the methanol recrystallization at the
end. In others ethanol is used instead of methanol. Do you know what exactly methanol/ethanol should do? I'm wondering if maybe is used to remove any
substance which can react with picric acid, producing unstable products, or to dilute any impurity found in commercial ammonia.
[Edited on 17-8-2016 by Tricka90] |
maybe this can help : http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ie50459a028
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NeonPulse
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A couple of days ago me and a friend were talking and he had this idea that the energy released from a bit of exploding potassium or sodium would be
enough to set off ETN or another sensitive explosive. I thought it sounded crazy but after watching some videos on the tube of alkali metals exploding
and seeing how they can break glass and blow water into the air it really does look like it is a plausible idea. I'm not really keen to attempt such a
dangerous stunt so it is purely theoretical. So what do you think? Maybe a gram of ETN wrapped in 1 layer of foil wrap with 1g of Na metal taped to it
tightly with metal exposed, and throwing it into a puddle. Would the ETN explode? If not from the shock or the metal exploding but maybe the heat of
the metal reacting with water?
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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If heating 10 grams Pb(NO3)2 on 300 - 400 C arises this compounds: 6,74g PbO + 2,78g NO2 + 0,04g O2. It is theory. Question: If will be both gases
(after cooling) Introducing into ice water, for example 5 Celsius: Arises HNO3 ? The attempts show that yes. It is fact, was try it, and worked. Weak
acid, but yes. Is in this method some problem? I am asking therefore, that Lead nitrate is possible easy prepare from NH4NO3 + Pb. A huge amount
during 2 hours. Will be described later.
But I am curios not for lead nitrate, but on preparation HNO3. Thanks... ....Dr.
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite (2024)
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kratomiter
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| Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse | | A couple of days ago me and a friend were talking and he had this idea that the energy released from a bit of exploding potassium or sodium would be
enough to set off ETN or another sensitive explosive. I thought it sounded crazy but after watching some videos on the tube of alkali metals exploding
and seeing how they can break glass and blow water into the air it really does look like it is a plausible idea. I'm not really keen to attempt such a
dangerous stunt so it is purely theoretical. So what do you think? Maybe a gram of ETN wrapped in 1 layer of foil wrap with 1g of Na metal taped to it
tightly with metal exposed, and throwing it into a puddle. Would the ETN explode? If not from the shock or the metal exploding but maybe the heat of
the metal reacting with water? |
Na or K in contact with chloroform detonates, see COPAE page 403: there's an improvised shock-sensitive device made this way.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov | If heating 10 grams Pb(NO3)2 on 300 - 400 C arises this compounds: 6,74g PbO + 2,78g NO2 + 0,04g O2. It is theory. Question: If will be both gases
(after cooling) Introducing into ice water, for example 5 Celsius: Arises HNO3 ? The attempts show that yes. It is fact, was try it, and worked. Weak
acid, but yes. Is in this method some problem? I am asking therefore, that Lead nitrate is possible easy prepare from NH4NO3 + Pb. A huge amount
during 2 hours. Will be described later.
But I am curios not for lead nitrate, but on preparation HNO3. Thanks.......Dr. |
Process is known for lab production of NO2 and NxOy from heavy metals nitrates.
What would be more interesting instead of Pb metal use ...would be to recycle the PbO with NH4NO3 to get NH3 + H2O (on one side) and Pb(NO3)2 (on the
other) to produce PbO and NO2,O2, NxOy...then HNO3 and HNO2.
PbO + 2NH4NO3 -heat-> Pb(NO3)2 + 2NH3(g) + H2O(l)
Pb(NO3)2 -heat-> PbO + NO2(g) + NxOy(g)
NO2 (g) + NxOy(g) -H2O-> HONO2 + HONO
2 HONO <--==> N2O3(g) + H2O
PbO will react easier with NH4NO3 than Pb...
Same could be done with Cu(NO3)2 but the recycling may pose problem...heating CuO and NH4NO3 is like heating TAC(u)N (Cu(NH3)4(NO3)2...
So better avoid metals that complexate NH3...
[Edited on 23-8-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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PHILOU Zrealone
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| Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse | | A couple of days ago me and a friend were talking and he had this idea that the energy released from a bit of exploding potassium or sodium would be
enough to set off ETN or another sensitive explosive. I thought it sounded crazy but after watching some videos on the tube of alkali metals exploding
and seeing how they can break glass and blow water into the air it really does look like it is a plausible idea. I'm not really keen to attempt such a
dangerous stunt so it is purely theoretical. So what do you think? Maybe a gram of ETN wrapped in 1 layer of foil wrap with 1g of Na metal taped to it
tightly with metal exposed, and throwing it into a puddle. Would the ETN explode? If not from the shock or the metal exploding but maybe the heat of
the metal reacting with water? |
The Na or K could be reactive enough to decompose the ETN...with a lot of heat and maybe fire...so explosion may result...yes.
But this would be unpractical, dangerous, uneconomical and a big waste of valuable Na or K.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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HNO3
Thanks, for flash answer. However it is work with poisons. Therefore will be this type preparation HNO3 examined later. As last event. Best thing, is
recyclation PbO and NH4NO3. In this time, is all only on theoretical level. I am looking for in patents this type preparation HNO3, but nothing find.
Again thanks......Dr.
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite (2024)
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nux vomica
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| Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov | | Thanks, for flash answer. However it is work with poisons. Therefore will be this type preparation HNO3 examined later. As last event. Best thing, is
recyclation PbO and NH4NO3. In this time, is all only on theoretical level. I am looking for in patents this type preparation HNO3, but nothing find.
Again thanks......Dr. |
I dont know if this is of any use liptakov, i pulled this out of a old 1860,s book i was reading on google books but i cant remember witch one it was
 anyway they are useing sodium nitrate and boracic acid heated together to produce
nitric acid .
By the patent process of M. Mallet, dried nitrate of soda is decomposed by dried or monohydrated boracic acid, by heating the two together. The
products are liquid nitric acid, which distils over, and biborate of soda (borax), which remains in the retort. The crude coloured nitric acid of
commerce (aquafortis) was originally prepared by distilling a mixture of nitre and copperas, and is still sometimes obtained in this way.
Cheers nux.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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HNO3
Thanks Nuxy, interesting method. Good note for all. ......LL
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite (2024)
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Maybe helping with the old chemical names like nitre and copperas old-common-chemical-name
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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