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Author: Subject: Isotopic bullion
phlogiston
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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 04:17


you also need to come up with an accurate method for assaying your fractions.

Don't underestimate the amount of work.

Although you seem content with just speculating and guessing, perhaps it is time to do a few minutes of googling for you, just to get an idea if your approach is feasible.

Copper isotopes on an Ion exchange resin:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016703701...
They mention a mass fractionation coefficient of 0.67 promille.

So you would need a little more than 1700 steps to go from 30.8% <sup>63</sup>Cu. to 95%.

You should probably automate the process. Also because you'll need to repeat it many times to obtain significant amounts.




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Marvin
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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 08:36


Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
the nice thing about copper is that both isotopes are NMR active and fairly strongly so, therefore, a simple testing device to non destructively assay such an alloy could in theory be constructed... ?


This might work with salts but I would expect it to fail with metal bars.
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deltaH
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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 09:36


@marvin

Could you elaborate please?




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deltaH
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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 09:43


Can somebody volunteer @phlogiston's article please. I cannot access it. Thanks.




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bfesser
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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 09:59


Please request papers in <strong><a href="forumdisplay.php?fid=21">References</a></strong>, not in public fora:
<strong><a href="viewthread.php?tid=25035">Wanted References and Needed Translations (9)</a></strong>

[edit] I've <a href="viewthread.php?tid=25035&page=8#pid302937">requested the paper</a> on your behalf&mdash;because I'd like something to read. Don't expect me to do the work for you next time, though. And be sure to send a thank you U2U to whomever retrieves it. ;)

[Edited on 11.10.13 by bfesser]




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deltaH
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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 11:17


Oh crud... need to request access for that too, poor @polverone... I'm giving him a lot of work. Thanks for the request @bfesser



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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 11:47


Huh. I thought you would have requested References access before Whimsy. When you're granted access, you'll see that the paper has already been retrieved by Dany.

What's up with the @ before usernames?




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deltaH
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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 11:53


Just a bad habit for making names stand out... I need to quit doing that! So far people have been mostly attaching references they refer to.



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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 12:04


Yup. People do that a lot, but it's good practice to keep them in the private forum so they don't show up on Google. We don't need Polverone getting sued or the website shutdown because some publication's arsehole lawyers decide to actively enforce their copyright. It's not an official policy (yet), but I'm trying to steer members in that direction.

[edit] I use boldface type ( &#91;b&#93; or &lt;strong&gt; ), as that's how the board software displays usernames.

[Edited on 11.10.13 by bfesser]




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deltaH
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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 12:08


Yeah my thoughts the same and agreed!



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deltaH
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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 14:57


Quote:
They mention a mass fractionation coefficient of 0.67 promille.

So you would need a little more than 1700 steps to go from 30.8% 63Cu. to 95%.
This is indeed very large! How did you work this out?

Yes automation is key, which is why I was initially fond of some electrophoresis version where you could send the ions backwards and forwards across the length of some stationary phase.

Thanks for the paper, I now know that I can use a ionic resin as the stationary phase and 3M HCl to elute with.

Now to figure out the simplest way to automate this... there's lots of room for creative problem solving here lol




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[*] posted on 11-10-2013 at 15:57


Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  

Isotopic separation is just plain difficult, requiring expensive equipment that's expensive to run. Not to mention the test equipment to characterize the product is itself expensive (mass spectrometer).



dangit, i want the future to be here already..
then i could just employ maxwell's demon to do my dirty work. :P
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phlogiston
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[*] posted on 14-10-2013 at 14:46


Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
This is indeed very large! How did you work this out?


I intentionally left this as an exercise for the student :) The math is not difficult (if I can do it, nearly anyone can).

Also, read up on 'theoretical plates' if you have to. This is an important concept in chromatography and will help you realise how making a column with ion-exchange resin, rather than doing it 'batch-wise', will help in terms of the number of purification steps you need.

It shouldn't be too hard to automate an ion-exchange based approach.

[Edited on 14-10-2013 by phlogiston]




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