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[*] posted on 5-12-2013 at 12:08


I like how mayko thinks out of the box. Something we would need more of.
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[*] posted on 5-12-2013 at 13:47


Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
That said, there are people who don't believe in the existence of subjective mental phenomena. They would think I'm wrong. I think they're idiots.

Not really idiots, as idiots are probably not clever enough to invent such a stupidity. But it could be said that people who believe in such irrational ideas like the non-existance of subjective mental phenomena are simply over-subjective in their ideas.




…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)

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watson.fawkes
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[*] posted on 5-12-2013 at 18:26


Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
Not really idiots, as idiots are probably not clever enough to invent such a stupidity.
There are lots of idiots who are idiots only because of their idiocy about particular topics, and who are otherwise intelligent even as they turn their intellect toward idiocy on those topics. Some of them even frequent this board.

For more on this particular idiocy, however, see Wikipedia on philosophical zombies. Argued as a hypothetical by some, but believed by others.
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[*] posted on 5-12-2013 at 18:38


So we've gone from discussion on pseudoscience to philosophy. Interesting how small a leap that was. You can guess my feelings toward philosophers...



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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 01:49


Quote: Originally posted by bfesser  
Ghosts!? For serious? Can you even begin to provide a plausible explanation for how ghosts can exist? Never underestimate the ability of the subconscious to interject what simply isn't there.


bfesser it is not scientific to state something cannot possibly exist based upon the fact you cannot nor have not seen it. This is no different than saying in 1900 black holes cannot exist because no one has seen one. Instrumentation and theories advance, new measurements are made which give strong evidence they are real even though you still cannot see one. Does this mean around 100 years ago they did not exist at that time? I believe there must be at least 11 dimensions in creation. We have nothing which can gather data from these other dimensions, thus we cannot say they are unreal merely because we cannot detect it. Same goes for whatever may exist in them. It is unlikely you can prove the grass is not greener on the other side when you have never made the trip over the hill. How can one state the 'lifeforce' if you will, does not occupy more dimensions than the ones our instruments can measure or detect energy in?

Looking at it with at least an open mind using a scientific approach considering if real but 'other dimensional' we cannot prove or disprove the idea based upon what devices we have available. So while you may say someone is delusional for belief in ghosts they are at least as correct as you if they say your wrong for stating their existence is impossible. A no win scenario at present, but I do believe you have no more credibility to state the negative than they do the positive. Insofar as physical proof goes. If science is based upon observation one can at least take a statistical approach to thousands of years of eyewitness accounts. If say only one in a hundred reports are real, this is still evidence obtained by observation giving at least some small credibility to the validity of their reports. Looking at it this way one can say from the observations there is more evidence ghosts do exist than you can provide to back up your claim they do not.

I have to say any other view is hypocritical, you cannot state with perfect certainty black holes exist but ghosts do not. By definition you cannot measure a black hole since all information with any device yet invented would be unable to escape. You can use 'other measurements' such as gravitational or Hawking radiation effects but this only proves something is there. Not positive proof of a black hole since again, one cannot by definition be seen. Black hole merely fits the theory. On the other hand hundreds of thousands of observations over thousands of years say ghosts can be seen. Certainly one cannot prove ghosts exist but in fairness one cannot prove they cannot, thus the hypocrisy to declare they do not exist with reasonable certainty.

Occam's razor in this case works for the believers and against your view. From the number of observations the simplest most logical and reasonable view is they have a better chance of being real than you have of proving they are not. In my opinion any other view is you guessed it 'hypocrisy'. There is a large body of observations and experiences of abilities the mind has which one can only say seems to involve 'other dimensions'. Not a good idea to discount it merely for your dislike of their terminology for these dimensions, such as 'spiritual' or 'paranormal'. Look at Bells inequality and quantum connectedness. Should we say particles can communicate at faster than light speeds through 'other dimensions', or 'paranormal dimensions'? Is this not merely different words used by people to describe what may be the same thing? Does the lack of scientific terminology make them less right and you more?

I don't know if ghosts exist with certainty, I do know you cannot prove they do not with certainty. The jury is out if you will, put it on a shelf and wait for better evidence keeping an open mind until something comes along which can prove with certainty one way or the other. I do know for sure a C15 remedy has nothing at all in it but water, diluted to infinity for all intents and purposes (maybe one molecule of cure in a quadrillion H2O's) so this one I can say you can disprove positively. At least you have a better chance disproving homeopathy than you do ghosts for what it's worth?






"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 07:09


Quote:

You can use 'other measurements' such as gravitational or Hawking radiation effects but this only proves something is there. Not positive proof of a black hole since again, one cannot by definition be seen.


What about atoms?




One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 10:18


Quote: Originally posted by vulture  
Quote:

You can use 'other measurements' such as gravitational or Hawking radiation effects but this only proves something is there. Not positive proof of a black hole since again, one cannot by definition be seen.


What about atoms?


If they are in a black hole they are toast. If not look at them using Atomic Force Microscopy. Atoms have been photographed already. A link to that article (Nature, IIRC) was posted here on SCM a while back, is where I first learned about it. Cool story wherever it is around here.

http://virtual.itg.uiuc.edu/training/AFM_tutorial/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_force_microscopy

"The AFM can be used to image and manipulate atoms and structures on a variety of surfaces."

If you say "but they are only looking at forces around it", my reply would be how do you see what you have seen, since what is seen is your proof of what is real? Forces. Light hits the retina, creates electrical signals (forces) that travel to and create a virtual image inside the brain. Using this information to decide what is real is intrinsically flawed anyway. How can one prove all reality is not some giant quantum hologram?

In effect everything we 'see' is unreal, merely a recreation in a virtual realm inside the brain. Surely that image inside the brain is unreal, an electronic virtual recreation of the actual entity which was 'seen'.


ncAFM-microscope8.jpg - 60kB




"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 10:22


<iframe sandbox width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/Rk1ELdPIN4A?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 11:57


A theory lives or dies by the experiment.

An even stronger test is what the theory can predict.

Since the cost of failure is so high, thousands of man hours are spent constructing mathematical models to predict how things like integrated circuits and satellites will perform before they are built. For example, relativistic effects were predicted to be critical in synchronizing the clocks in GPS satellites, and the prediction was found to be correct.

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps....
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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 12:04


On that note:
http://xkcd.com/808/




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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 13:32


Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese  
On that note:
http://xkcd.com/808/


I like that crystal energy/regular energy entry. I had a girlfriend once who was into crystals. Great looking but whacky. She left me one day when she found out I had stayed at a Holiday Inn.




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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 15:47


IrC, please elaborate on that last point.



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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 15:51


I think, bfesser, that IrC is riffing off of a series of ads in which a person says, "I'm not actually a doctor/surgeon/rocket scientist, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night". IrC explained to the girlfriend that crystals are pretty, but not magical, so she got upset and left.



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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 16:02


The man is spying on me. Absolutely correct. Scarey.




"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 16:14


Ahh, I see.. I don't watch TV, listen to commercial radio, or [clearly] get out much in general... Thanks for the elucidation.



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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 16:22


Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
The man is spying on me. Absolutely correct. Scarey.

If I was spying on anyone, it would have been her.




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[*] posted on 7-12-2013 at 04:57


Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
look at them using Atomic Force Microscopy. Atoms have been photographed already.

1914 called - they've seen the three dimensional electron density of NaCl, not only the surface (AFM) or a projection (HRTEM). They also report a tragic loss: that year the molecular model of the solid state died. :(
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[*] posted on 20-12-2013 at 07:04


Bfesser those look around you videos make me bust up laughing, thanks for that.

Here's a new swindle I've seen sweeping the internet, "Ormus Water". It's not on wikipedia yet, probably because it's just so incredibly absurd. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/ORMUS . I have noticed a terrifying trend of people readily renouncing the reproducible and accepting the fantastic for a small fee. Sure have an imagination, that's highly encouraged for a scientist or a human being. Just don't be a pretentious douche over-paying for placebo water. More importantly don't be the pretentious douche selling over-priced placebo water to tax the ignorant.




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[*] posted on 20-12-2013 at 09:21


While Xmas shopping last year, I came across a fellow selling "orgonite" (cheap plastic with metal shavings and gravel mixed in with it). He claimed that this "man-made mineral", with its "natural crystals" would do all kinds of funky things with the spiritual energy of the surroundings, and to prove it, he had large blocks of ice that he had frozen with an orgonite "crystal (i.e., lump) resting on it. It showed trails of white where bubbles of air had precipitated out, and he claimed this was proof of the energy vortex created by his magical orgonite.

I told him he was full of shit, and he couldn't believe how closed minded I was.




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[*] posted on 4-1-2014 at 10:23


Love this thread bfesser. Nothing pisses me off more than uninformed vultures preying on the ingnorant and misinformed in the nme of "science."

The following link has some great alerts to current pseudoscience threats, and is updated frequently. I love reading it, though it always gets my ire up.


http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles?category=Pseudos...


Oh, and please no " he like Dawkins, he's and athiest snake in the grass" nonsense please. Just stick to the pseudoscience category if the anti-theological stuff rubs you the wrong way.




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[*] posted on 5-1-2014 at 11:18


Found another good one that VICE did a brief documentary on (http://www.vice.com/read/a-wanderful-experience-454-v17n6),
http://www.eamega.com/es/usa-products/usa-personal-wellness/...

Quote:
The Amega AMWand Classic is made up of a special combination of granulated crystals, that are energized using our own proprietary AMized Fusion Technology, encapsulated within a stainless steel, pen-sized casing. The crystals in the AMWand naturally harmonize and energize our gross and subtle bodies. They have powerful healing qualities and are energy amplifiers that can receive, activate, store, transmit and regulate energy.


Thanks for the link Bot0nist.




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[*] posted on 5-1-2014 at 11:29


Quote:
Usage of AMWand:
  • Energize any area of the body
  • Energize body fluids
  • Enhance sleep
  • Energize personal care products
  • Does it literally vibrate with energy?

    <hr width="80%" />
    <iframe sandbox width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/ljKX9Om7Z4s?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    <a href="http://youtu.be/5kqeiEDjALE" target="_blank">The Light Bulb Conspiracy Agenda 21 Soft Kill Weaponry (Eugenics)</a>

    [Edited on 5.1.14 by bfesser]




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    [*] posted on 15-1-2014 at 10:48
    Radioactive "Negative Ion" Silicone Bracelets?


    http://amal.net/?p=4773

    Anybody else see this? I wonder what they have in them!

    I'm pretty sure they are all over Ebay:
    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=negative+ion+bracelet&a...
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    [*] posted on 15-1-2014 at 10:59


    This would be a good thread to merge with the psuedoscience one.



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    [*] posted on 15-1-2014 at 11:33


    They almost certainly have nothing in them but good wishes and snake oil.



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