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Author: Subject: Compensating for higher purity h202 in TATP synth
Pard
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[*] posted on 29-11-2013 at 18:27
Compensating for higher purity h202 in TATP synth


Hello
I've been reading a lot about the synthesis of of TATP / Acetone Peroxide lately and most teks call for the use of acetone (seems to be standard), sulfuric or hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide. The problem is, they usually deal with 30% or 3% strength. They say if you have 3% to use ten times as much as if it were thirty. Now, does this same scaling work if one had 50% h202? Do the quantities of the acid change?

Sorry for such beginner questions. I'm not attempting this, just a sort of problem in my head to help further my understanding of the way this reaction works.
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elementcollector1
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[*] posted on 29-11-2013 at 18:31


To guess, yes. If the scale between 30% and 3% is ten times, you can be assured that for 50%, the factor is 5/3 as much as for the 30% and 50/3 as much for the 3%.
The quantities of the acid should not change, because in each case you're using the same amount of hydrogen peroxide (dissolved in different amounts of water). It's stoichiometry.




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29-11-2013 at 18:49
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[*] posted on 29-11-2013 at 18:51


So assuming it would call for 500mls of 3% that's 15mls of pure h202 in there. So assuming one had 50% strength, they'd use 30mls then?

The reason I asked if the acid and such changed is because I thought perhaps the excess dilution might mean the catalyst needed to be stronger / more plentiful to combat the excess water
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[*] posted on 29-11-2013 at 21:58


No, catalyst is catalyst, no matter the dilution.



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[*] posted on 30-11-2013 at 12:37


Are you are? It would seem to me that less catalyst could be used because it's more available to the reactants. Our perhaps only that less time is needed.
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[*] posted on 30-11-2013 at 19:15


Okay, interseting. This sort of thing is the reason I'm asking these questions. Fascinating. While on the topic. How does scaling up the ingredients work?
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[*] posted on 30-11-2013 at 19:36


You should scale them up by molar quantities - it would help to look up what a "mole" is in chemistry terms, and what "stoichiometry" is as well.
Scaling up the catalyst should only speed up the reaction rate, as that's what catalysts do. It would probably be a good idea to use more catalyst in case of dilution, but it's not exactly necessary.




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[*] posted on 30-11-2013 at 19:36


I would use less acid proportional to the reduced volume of the solution (hydrogen peroxide + acetone + acid) to keep the pH the same.

DO NOT scale up organic peroxide syntheses. It's a very bad idea.




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[*] posted on 1-12-2013 at 13:06


I took info from this russian book: pirochem.net/index.php?id1=3&category=chemvvisost&author=bagal-li&book=1975 .Its author wrote just about 50% H2O2. I used 30% one- H2O2 : acetone =5:4 and few drops of 38% HCl. Do not use H2SO4!



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[*] posted on 1-12-2013 at 14:50


Yeah, most teks I've read that offer different quantities for different yields don't recommend scaling up, the acid generally stays similar while the acetone and H202 increase.

Though I've received conflicting reports on what a good, safe batch is. What one person says is a safe first batch corresponds to a 20 gram batch from another's tek.
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[*] posted on 2-12-2013 at 01:21


In this particular case problems with scaling do not exist. Problems with large amount of sensitive compound do. Make few grams and split when it is wet to small portions- 0.2-0.4 gr, no more. Keep them in different places. Use usual precautionary measures. I have no problems with TATP. Once I mixed it with AN- well, it was rather stupid experiment, I have to admit.



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[*] posted on 6-12-2013 at 20:20


I've heard of 1 part to 1 part mixes of AP and AN being used as a booster or even "an average primary" - what was your opinion on the result?
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[*] posted on 7-12-2013 at 00:29


Quote: Originally posted by Pard  
I've heard of 1 part to 1 part mixes of AP and AN being used as a booster or even "an average primary" - what was your opinion on the result?


Not good idea. TATP is itself powerful primer. Been diluted with AN it looses part of its performance. This mixture will have better OB, yeah, but surely worse VoD. If you want to make a primer, the first rule is to use as small amount of hi sensitive explosive as possible. Mixture of TATP + AN will be as sensitive as TATP itself. And remember, that mixing means friction. I made once such mixture and now I have to admit, that it was bad idea. Too risky.




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[*] posted on 7-12-2013 at 05:11


well.. wouldnt it make sense that the HCl would need to be added in larger quanity due to the larger amount of water in the .. well reaction?

i mean, the pH would be much lower if using say 1L 3% H2O2 and 10 mL HCl compared to 100 mL H2O2 30% and 10 mL HCl

i recall
2.5 acetone 1.5 H2O2 0.5 HCL
acetone 99.9
H2O2 30%
HCl 30%
as in mL




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 7-12-2013 at 07:22


Why is AP even let to be talked about here, it is the mother of improvised explosives and has absolutely no use in the real world. AP comes up so much on this forum it's kind of scary, you have to ask, once people learn how to make 10grams+ (which is there intent, you can't deny that), how many of them actually harm themselves, we don't know because they would never come back to report it, not to mention, God Forbid someone comes on here looking for info who has ill intended use for it.

There is nothing that interesting or exciting about TATP...

Surprises me what the forum moderators let go and what gets thrown out.
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[*] posted on 7-12-2013 at 16:34


Well, what is the best choice for a primer? Assume TATP is an ill and must be avoided by all possible means. MF? Lead azide? Lead picrate? What in particular? I'm here and alive after working with TATP. I made portions about 10 gr or more (50 ml of H2O2 + 40 ml of acetone). MF at nearly killed me. Lead azide is good primer, but only if you can get NaN3 somewhere. Lead stiphnate is a quasy primer- one must take large amount of it to initiate a secondary explosive. same problem with lead picrate.



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[*] posted on 8-12-2013 at 12:18


You mean "primary"? Mercury Fulminate, Silver Acetylide Double Salt, Lead Azide etc.

Or experiment with NPED, MHN should be a great choice for that.

NPED's worked 3/5 of the time for me, that was with ETN.

I think MHN is a bit more sensitive and would be a bit more reliable. Go on Youtube there's a diagram of one somewhere.
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