Pard
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Compensating for higher purity h202 in TATP synth
Hello
I've been reading a lot about the synthesis of of TATP / Acetone Peroxide lately and most teks call for the use of acetone (seems to be standard),
sulfuric or hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide. The problem is, they usually deal with 30% or 3% strength. They say if you have 3% to use ten
times as much as if it were thirty. Now, does this same scaling work if one had 50% h202? Do the quantities of the acid change?
Sorry for such beginner questions. I'm not attempting this, just a sort of problem in my head to help further my understanding of the way this
reaction works.
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elementcollector1
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To guess, yes. If the scale between 30% and 3% is ten times, you can be assured that for 50%, the factor is 5/3 as much as for the 30% and 50/3 as
much for the 3%.
The quantities of the acid should not change, because in each case you're using the same amount of hydrogen peroxide (dissolved in different amounts
of water). It's stoichiometry.
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bfesser
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Thread Moved
29-11-2013 at 18:49 |
Pard
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So assuming it would call for 500mls of 3% that's 15mls of pure h202 in there. So assuming one had 50% strength, they'd use 30mls then?
The reason I asked if the acid and such changed is because I thought perhaps the excess dilution might mean the catalyst needed to be stronger / more
plentiful to combat the excess water
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elementcollector1
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No, catalyst is catalyst, no matter the dilution.
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Trotsky
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Are you are? It would seem to me that less catalyst could be used because it's more available to the reactants. Our perhaps only that less time is
needed.
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Pard
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Okay, interseting. This sort of thing is the reason I'm asking these questions. Fascinating. While on the topic. How does scaling up the ingredients
work?
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elementcollector1
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You should scale them up by molar quantities - it would help to look up what a "mole" is in chemistry terms, and what "stoichiometry" is as well.
Scaling up the catalyst should only speed up the reaction rate, as that's what catalysts do. It would probably be a good idea to use more catalyst in
case of dilution, but it's not exactly necessary.
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Metacelsus
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I would use less acid proportional to the reduced volume of the solution (hydrogen peroxide + acetone + acid) to keep the pH the same.
DO NOT scale up organic peroxide syntheses. It's a very bad idea.
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caterpillar
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I took info from this russian book: pirochem.net/index.php?id1=3&category=chemvvisost&author=bagal-li&book=1975 .Its author wrote just
about 50% H2O2. I used 30% one- H2O2 : acetone =5:4 and few drops of 38% HCl. Do not use H2SO4!
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Pard
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Yeah, most teks I've read that offer different quantities for different yields don't recommend scaling up, the acid generally stays similar while the
acetone and H202 increase.
Though I've received conflicting reports on what a good, safe batch is. What one person says is a safe first batch corresponds to a 20 gram batch from
another's tek.
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caterpillar
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In this particular case problems with scaling do not exist. Problems with large amount of sensitive compound do. Make few grams and split when it is
wet to small portions- 0.2-0.4 gr, no more. Keep them in different places. Use usual precautionary measures. I have no problems with TATP. Once I
mixed it with AN- well, it was rather stupid experiment, I have to admit.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Pard
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I've heard of 1 part to 1 part mixes of AP and AN being used as a booster or even "an average primary" - what was your opinion on the result?
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caterpillar
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Quote: Originally posted by Pard  | | I've heard of 1 part to 1 part mixes of AP and AN being used as a booster or even "an average primary" - what was your opinion on the result?
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Not good idea. TATP is itself powerful primer. Been diluted with AN it looses part of its performance. This mixture will have better OB, yeah, but
surely worse VoD. If you want to make a primer, the first rule is to use as small amount of hi sensitive explosive as possible. Mixture of TATP + AN
will be as sensitive as TATP itself. And remember, that mixing means friction. I made once such mixture and now I have to admit, that it was bad idea.
Too risky.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Fantasma4500
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well.. wouldnt it make sense that the HCl would need to be added in larger quanity due to the larger amount of water in the .. well reaction?
i mean, the pH would be much lower if using say 1L 3% H2O2 and 10 mL HCl compared to 100 mL H2O2 30% and 10 mL HCl
i recall
2.5 acetone 1.5 H2O2 0.5 HCL
acetone 99.9
H2O2 30%
HCl 30%
as in mL
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Turner
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Why is AP even let to be talked about here, it is the mother of improvised explosives and has absolutely no use in the real world. AP comes up so much
on this forum it's kind of scary, you have to ask, once people learn how to make 10grams+ (which is there intent, you can't deny that), how many of
them actually harm themselves, we don't know because they would never come back to report it, not to mention, God Forbid someone comes on here looking
for info who has ill intended use for it.
There is nothing that interesting or exciting about TATP...
Surprises me what the forum moderators let go and what gets thrown out.
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caterpillar
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Well, what is the best choice for a primer? Assume TATP is an ill and must be avoided by all possible means. MF? Lead azide? Lead picrate? What in
particular? I'm here and alive after working with TATP. I made portions about 10 gr or more (50 ml of H2O2 + 40 ml of acetone). MF at nearly killed
me. Lead azide is good primer, but only if you can get NaN3 somewhere. Lead stiphnate is a quasy primer- one must take large amount of it to initiate
a secondary explosive. same problem with lead picrate.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Turner
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You mean "primary"? Mercury Fulminate, Silver Acetylide Double Salt, Lead Azide etc.
Or experiment with NPED, MHN should be a great choice for that.
NPED's worked 3/5 of the time for me, that was with ETN.
I think MHN is a bit more sensitive and would be a bit more reliable. Go on Youtube there's a diagram of one somewhere.
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