Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition » Brainstorming for Future Bulk Buys Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues

Pages:  1
Author: Subject: Brainstorming for Future Bulk Buys
*FWOOSH*
Hazard to Self

Posts: 90
Registered: 6-9-2013
Location: ooo esss ahhh
Member Is Offline

Mood: manic

Mostly for those of you in the US and maybe surrounding countries, are there any reagents that are either expensive or hard to find that you would be interested in buying if I were to make a bulk purchase and offer it for resale?

If you guys can give me some suggestions I can look around and get quotes from different suppliers and see if I can do better than what's currently available.

I still have ~15 kg of NaBH4 for sale so this is probably not for a couple months but I thought I'd get the ball rolling now.

EDIT: For example I was considering sodium metal, but shipping sodium metal would be a pain in the ASS and it's already available online. I could at least bring the price down to ~175 /kg, which is something around half the price of gallium source but again, sodium metal is the epitome of HazMat.

I was also looking around for LiAlH4. It's pretty expensive so I'd like to hear interest on that front before I made a buy. Haven't got much pricing figured out for that one yet but I could probably bring the price down a couple hundred /kg from what Chemsavers asks and I would have a more reasonable price scale for smaller purchases than they do.

[Edited on 3-12-2013 by *FWOOSH*]
I Like Dots
Hazard to Self

Posts: 69
Registered: 10-4-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: frisky

I was looking at importing things, like Ethyl Ether, or Iodine/NaI/KI.
The only source for Ether is $50 for 500ml. *FWOOSH* Hazard to Self Posts: 90 Registered: 6-9-2013 Location: ooo esss ahhh Member Is Offline Mood: manic Ether can be synthesized by distilling a mixture of ethanol and H2SO4 ( I wonder if fuel grade ethanol could be utilized for this? think there was a thread about it somewhere), or if that's not your style methyl tert-butyl ether is available at auto parts stores as an octane booster, I've found it to be a pretty solid replacement for DEE. DEE is very expensive to buy in the US but I don't like the idea of being around gallons of DEE nor do I relish the prospect of trying to repackage and distribute it. My opinion at the moment is that there are suitable alternatives that make redistributing DEE too much of a headache, but if there's enough interest I'll consider it. Elemental Iodine is controlled by the DEA, you can get in a lot of trouble if you get caught reselling it without a permit. It's also somewhat reasonably priced on ebay from what I've seen. I think I'll stay hands off of that one. I think Iodide salts are also covered under that bit of the DEA's jurisdiction, correct me if I'm wrong though. I think I could get Lithium for a good price, and it seems to be pretty ridiculously expensive otherwise. Any interest in that? [Edited on 3-12-2013 by *FWOOSH*] MrHomeScientist International Hazard Posts: 1806 Registered: 24-10-2010 Location: Flerovium Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood From what I understand iodides are completely unwatched/unregulated. At least, they aren't on the DEA Lists of Scheduled Chemicals (wheras elemental iodine is). Amusing, since it's incredibly easy to isolate iodine from iodide salts, thus easily sidestepping regulations. Makes the whole war on drugs seem pretty futile, but that's another discussion that's very off-topic. *FWOOSH* Hazard to Self Posts: 90 Registered: 6-9-2013 Location: ooo esss ahhh Member Is Offline Mood: manic http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/rules/2007/fr0702... There we go. "Chemical mixtures containing greater than 2.2% iodine" that's pretty damn vague. I'd say the term "Chemical mixtures" expressly implies a mixture of chemicals not elements, and therefore Iodine can be extrapolated to mean the chemical compound Iodine (I2) and not the element as a component of a salt, as it is not in and of itself a chemical in the mixture in the second case. So you're probably right MrHomeScientist . Silly feds. zed International Hazard Posts: 2273 Registered: 6-9-2008 Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland Member Is Offline Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord The hysteria regarding Iodine seems to have eased somewhat. Numerous states have acted to restrict sales of Ephedrine; the Real Problem! *FWOOSH* Hazard to Self Posts: 90 Registered: 6-9-2013 Location: ooo esss ahhh Member Is Offline Mood: manic I really shouldn't, but I'm going to. https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/ephedra.htm... Evidently the Ephedra plant is a suitable candidate for replacing synthetic ephedrine. Bahahahahahaha This cracks me up, they're always going after "The Real Problem" and it's always something different every couple years, and I really don't think that the world at large will ever be able to comprehend chemistry enough understand the hilarious futility of the war on drugs. But ANYWAY, off topic again . [Edited on 3-12-2013 by *FWOOSH*] Polverone Now celebrating 18 years of madness Posts: 3164 Registered: 19-5-2002 Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest Member Is Offline Mood: Waiting for spring The product should be versatile, not be significantly more regulated for sales or shipping than NaBH4, and be commonly difficult or expensive for individuals to purchase in small quantities. Some ideas: Salts of hydroxylamine Salts of hydrazine Sodium dithionite Sodium azide Paraformaldehyde Magnesium ribbon Less sure about practicality of shipping, otherwise interesting: Tert-butyl alcohol Dimethylformamide Tetrahydrofuran Acetonitrile Other: TLC plates Many of these items are not too difficult to produce in a home laboratory from OTC materials, but all at least require significant preparative labor. They would be worthwhile purchases for many home laboratories. PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address Dariusrussell Hazard to Self Posts: 70 Registered: 27-6-2013 Location: Southie Member Is Offline Mood: Organometallics I actually think TLC plates are a great idea and I'm in need of them! I've tried to make some from the various DIY guides but I'm never happy with the results. I'm not an expert on TLC, but I think silica on glass would be the most versatile, and in sheets would be the most cost effective. EDIT: Also depending on what people want, PET backed seems better since its easier to cut and handle. [Edited on 4-12-2013 by Dariusrussell] Blue Matter Hazard to Others Posts: 107 Registered: 20-6-2013 Location: US Member Is Offline Mood: Optimus PTFE stuff would be cool also browsing around Alibaba you can find some interesting products made from ptfe. mr.crow International Hazard Posts: 884 Registered: 9-9-2009 Location: Canada Member Is Offline Mood: 0xFF There actually is a bulk buy for Iodine in Canada (legal here), you can get it on Ebay! Called Ingredient Depot. He's had it for years, probably ruined his warehouse by now. Iodine is super expensive after the Fukushima disaster and everyone going crazy. My concern is safely shipping. There is a huge manual of how to ship different goods and improper shipping could cause big trouble. Inorganic salts seem pretty harmless but ether or solvents would be a huge hazard. Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble mayko International Hazard Posts: 1144 Registered: 17-1-2013 Location: Carrboro, NC Member Is Offline Mood: anomalous (Euclid class) I think getting bulk TLC plates is a great idea; I was saddened to find them prohibitively expensive for the amount of chromatography I'd like to do. al-khemie is not a terrorist organization "Chemicals, chemicals... I need chemicals!" - George Hayduke "Wubbalubba dub-dub!" - Rick Sanchez *FWOOSH* Hazard to Self Posts: 90 Registered: 6-9-2013 Location: ooo esss ahhh Member Is Offline Mood: manic Thanks for some great suggestions Polverone! The only one that I'd say is cheap and easy to get a hold of is paraformaldehyde, buy it off ebay for pretty cheap (Like$30/kg) as a mildewcide, but it's usually only ~90% purity. Just got some myself actually. http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-BAGS-PROTEXALL-G-P-MILDEW-PREVENTI...

Magnesium is always lovely, did the math and realized you're right, it's actually quite expensive to buy Mg ribbon. I'll get some quotes.

Hydrazine is always a bitch and quite useful, never needed hydroxylamine hcl but it does look like it's a pretty expensive and versatile and reagent so it's on the list. Haven't used Sodium Dithionite either (I looked for Dithionate at first... woops) but I'll look around.

Sodium azide I'm not horribly fond of, makes me more nervous than CN salts. Not sure how shippable it is either. But I'm pretty sure there's a demand for it. I'd have to think on it and look up any shipping regulations.

All four of those solvents you mention are great ideas if I can work out the shipping kinks. I feel like I spend an obscene amount of money for what doesn't always last very long.
Flammable liquids are a bitch to ship, but virtually EVERY solvent organic chemists work with is a flammable liquid .

I found a couple people offering TLC plates, I'll try to get some details. What do TLC plates run? Got mine from Dr.Bob as kind of a bonus.

@Darius
Found this on Ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-TLC-plates-thin-layer-chromatogra...
Seemed pretty reasonable for some good sized plates.

@Blue
What kind of stuff have you been looking at? I found some PTFE containers that were neat, hard to find in the US.
Funkerman23
National Hazard

Posts: 411
Registered: 4-1-2012
Location: Dixie
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

Neutral Silica 60 powder would be nice but the allure of preparative column chromatography has worn off so no rush really. Of course I could be full of it so take with a grain of salt.

" the Modern Chemist is inundated with literature"-Unknown
*FWOOSH*
Hazard to Self

Posts: 90
Registered: 6-9-2013
Location: ooo esss ahhh
Member Is Offline

Mood: manic

Turns out the vendor I purchased from last time stocks Hydroxylamine HCl. Are any of you guys looking for some? I could probably have it within a couple weeks (so much for a couple months...), I'd have to get a 21 kg drum though so I'm gonna need some kinda show of hands.
Pricing would be something like:
1 kg - $100 + shipping 500g -$65 + shipping
250g - $40 + shipping 100g -$20 + shipping
50g - $12 + shipping Shipping would be MUCH cheaper this time around because it's shippable via USPS Post in here or U2U me so I can get an idea as to how much interest there is. [Edited on 4-12-2013 by *FWOOSH*] Marvin International Hazard Posts: 994 Registered: 13-10-2002 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Those TLC plates on ebay would be decent value if we could cut them up to small test strips, but those are glass backed. 20 years ago I think the strips were were using worked out at about 50p each for about 1 inch by 3 inches. I thought that was expensive for silica coated plastic film. *FWOOSH* Hazard to Self Posts: 90 Registered: 6-9-2013 Location: ooo esss ahhh Member Is Offline Mood: manic You can most definitely cut glass plates into more usable test strips. Here's a nice tutorial with pictures for those of you who're interested. http://chemtips.wordpress.com/2012/12/14/cutting-edge/ And I inquired about the TLC plates, but they're too expensive. I might be able to get the price lower if I get 40 or 50 boxes instead of 20 but I won't have that kind of cash available for a while. [Edited on 4-12-2013 by *FWOOSH*] Marvin International Hazard Posts: 994 Registered: 13-10-2002 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood As much for curiosity than anything else, how much? Glass plates can be cut and trimmed but aside from having a lot of broken glass edges around the coating tends to crack and splinter and flake off. I have the feeling that would be a nightmare on a glass substrate. Pyro International Hazard Posts: 1305 Registered: 6-4-2012 Location: Gent, Belgium Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood A quick search on alibaba reveals the price of Na to be between 2200 and 2900USD/1000kg the MOQ is multiple tons for most offers, but a few will sell as little as 10kg. as far as hydroxylamine HCl is 5-15USD/kg with an MOQ of 25kg. that makes your price quote a bit much *FWOOSH* another possible bulk buy is Br2 [Edited on 5-12-2013 by Pyro] all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. *FWOOSH* Hazard to Self Posts: 90 Registered: 6-9-2013 Location: ooo esss ahhh Member Is Offline Mood: manic I've found that the price you see on the listings has very little correlation to what you're actually going end up paying. 5-15 USD is the price they ask for tonnage scale orders. AND that's the FOB price, which only includes the cost of materials, shipping via courier adds a significant amount to the price, not to mention the paypal fees I have to cover. I was quoted for 1000 USD including shipping for 21kg. I might be able to get it down to 800-900 but I don't like to haggle until I'm set on buying something, otherwise you piss off the few people willing to sell to an individual. Even many of the companies with MOQ's down to 1 kg won't even respond to individuals, they reserve small orders for large companies looking for samples before a large buy. And most of the companies won't accept paypal, they want you to wire them the money before they send out your package, which is asking to get scammed. The pricing I gave, based on me paying ~50 /kg is roughly half that of what I saw elsewhere. I thought that was pretty fair, correct me if I'm wrong. As for the sodium, I managed to get a quote that came out to roughly$60 /kg shipped, but I had a bad feeling about the vendor and they wouldn't accept PayPal so that was wasted time.

I'm not trying to rip anyone off here, I'm quite open about what I'm paying. You also have to consider the economics of the whole thing, I'm putting my money forward for something I will quite likely be sitting on for a long time. I put a lot of time and effort into obtaining something. Then I have to verify the quality. Then I have to repackage it (not free) and get it shipped out, if it's international I can spend over half an hour just on paperwork sometimes for one order. I have to leave margins for packages which are lost or broken (supposedly covered by insurance but I have a hard time ever getting money from anyone) which has happened several times already. As much as I'd love to do all this for free it all costs time and money, both of which I have in limited supply.

On the other hand if you've actually communicated with a supplier and received a better quote good for you! Buy it, let me know about it or just post about it here. It's finals week and I don't have the time to communicate with more than a couple of these suppliers.
This isn't supposed to be solely a thread for me. Anyone with the money and initiative is free to take some of these ideas and buy up some chemicals. I don't hold a monopoly on the Chinese chemical market. I was just one of the only ones on this board to take the jump and buy from them, the idea's even been bounced around a couple times in threads on this site.

Sorry if I ranted, I just felt like I needed to clear up that it isn't as simple as clicking "add to cart" = Profit. No hard feelings Pyro .

@Marvin
20 boxes with 20 pieces each of 5cm X 20cm for $790 shipped. Didn't say anything about fluorescent indicator either. Cheaper than new from a US company but still too much for hobbyist usage I think. Pretty sure there're better deals on ebay. Pyro International Hazard Posts: 1305 Registered: 6-4-2012 Location: Gent, Belgium Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood I was just giving a comment, I see the dilemma. you can always pretend to be a company, chances are they can't verify the info you give them... all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. *FWOOSH* Hazard to Self Posts: 90 Registered: 6-9-2013 Location: ooo esss ahhh Member Is Offline Mood: manic Hey! Good news about the TLC plates! I found some for sale on ebay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/JT-Baker-TLC-Plate-Silica-Gel-7001-0... 5cm X 20cm glass backed with fluorescent indicator. Just bought the last 10 boxes. He was asking 125 apiece but I got him to do more like 65 incl shipping since I took the rest off his hands. I'm willing to break up the boxes and I could even look into cutting these into test sized strips for a bit extra for those who don't want to do it themselves. I was thinking something like$100 + shipping for a box of 100. Coincidentally this comes out to about 50p per plate at the current exchange rates Marvin , for much larger plates even.
If people who're interested could post or message me with the kind of quantity they'd want and whether or not they would want them pre-cut (dunno how much that'd be, think it'd be pretty reasonable though) I can try to get some kind of actual pricing scheme figured out.

EDIT:
@Pyro
I didn't think you were accusing me of anything, I just felt like I should put that out there to prevent anyone from thinking it.
I could pretend to be a company, but ethics aside, I think it would be a lot of work and not as simple as it sounds at first.

[Edited on 5-12-2013 by *FWOOSH*]
Pyro
International Hazard

Posts: 1305
Registered: 6-4-2012
Location: Gent, Belgium
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

I got loads of chemicals pretending to be a company, my location helped a lot but still...

all above information is intellectual property of Pyro.
*FWOOSH*
Hazard to Self

Posts: 90
Registered: 6-9-2013
Location: ooo esss ahhh
Member Is Offline

Mood: manic

If you've managed to pull it off then it's something I'll keep in mind at least then. I'd agree that your location probably helps a lot though, and I'd just as soon avoid any shady business at the moment.
zenosx
Hazard to Others

Posts: 188
Registered: 7-7-2012
Location: East TN / Near Oak Ridge
Member Is Offline

Mood: Awaiting Results....

Older thread pushed I suppose from the resent NaBH4 going out.

I'd be interested VERY MUCH in TLC plates. They are prohibitively expensive from what I have found for what I would use them for, and the home-made versions have never turned out the way I expected.
Second on the Hydroxylamine HCl, although I would only purchase `100g at most.

Highly volatile solvents I would think would be pretty much off the list because of shipping issues (ether for ex.)

A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?

Albert Einstein
Pages:  1

 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition » Brainstorming for Future Bulk Buys Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues