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Author: Subject: Primary Explosive questions
NexusDNA
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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 07:09


You should read about safety straightaway. Also, try to understand the chemistry behind it, there are a few research-oriented texts here in the EM board (these are the ones you should look for, and not youtube k3wl videos).
Least but last, acquire at least some beakers. You can't make anything in a mayonnese jar.

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by NexusDNA]
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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 07:19


How do I know that I ready to make? Well thanks. I will read it. To be honest the guy with explosive in hand really bad luck. Scary! .
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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 10:56


Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  
How do I know that I ready to make?


most of your questions wouldn't have been asked if you have read much/"enough" about these compounds and showing us that you realize what kind of dangerous stuff they are...

your questions seems like "oh explosives? cool, how can i make it, i have these chems...hurry answer my questions i wanna make it and give a sh*t about your warnings"

i think sombody i never "ready" for this stuff, only aware enough to handle it as save as possible and with much respect. then, your chances should be ~okay to stay at the 10finger-club...and even THEN, accidents can always happen :(

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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 11:11


What Vlad said...

Half a gram of dry TCAP pressed and slightly confined is way faster than flash and will easily rearrange your hands for you, and at the slightest provocation... My advice, wait till you can make better primaries if you need them that bad. Peroxides are a non starter in my book. I have first hand experience with MEKP and TCAP as well as HMTD. Scary sensitive and hard to work with. Also very wicked. Even in the 100mg range. I know half of you thinks im just nannying you. Thats fine. Hope you never find out for yourself.

Be safe.

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by Bot0nist]




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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 11:38


If you want to start with some easy primaries. as I suggested, Nickle hydrazine nitrate (NHN), simply use nickle nitrate + hydrazine hydrate(toxic). Or lead azide(toxic), which is also easy to make once you have Sodium azide(toxic). Those are just as sensitive as TATP however at least they dont have a bad reputation and wont get you flamed in the forums.

If you go for secondary, strong suggestion is 5-Amino-1,2,3,4-Tetrazolium Nitrate(5ATZN) It has an impact sensitivity of around 10J (RDX is 6J) and a friction sensitivity off the scale. 5ATZN is one of easiest and most stable and energetic(VoD 9000) tetrazole salt you can make, simply add Amino tetrazole and dilute nitric acid. You can also try RDX.
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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 11:48


I am not flaming Dubai. I think primaries are not for beginners, and the two you mentioned are not ideal either. All primaries are sensitive. Organic peroxides are stupid. For many reasons. Im done schoolmarming. Just concerned for our new friends digits is all.

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by Bot0nist]
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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 14:26


Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
I am not flaming Dubai. I think primaries are not for beginners, and the two you mentioned are not ideal either. All primaries are sensitive. Organic peroxides are stupid. For many reasons. Im done schoolmarming. Just concerned for our new friends digits is all.

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by Bot0nist]


Well, but how do you plan to initiate secondaries without primary? Put it into steel box and set fire under it? OK, in such case one may start with kalium picrate. This compound is less sensitive, than any usual primary, but exploded, been ignited in confinement. And you needn't thick steel container- a tin from under beer is good enough. As for me, I used TATP and has no problem with it. 1 gr was enough to initiate mixture of AN + ammonium picrate. This is why I sure, that 0.2 gr of TATP, having direct contact with pressed RDX will be enough.




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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 14:56


I dont have such plans, but if I did maybe...

A small amount ofSilver acetylide DS 》 ETN or TNP in a compound cap 》secondary or tertiary. Sure maybe 1 gram of pressed TCAP will do it, but a gram of sensitive, unstable primary over a few 100mg of a better and slightly safer primary to induce my explosive train sounds much better to me. 1 gram of pressed TCAP with a fuse in it...You have brass ball, IMHO. I wouldnt have the nerve to carry it, let alone to insert it into a base charge. (*Shudder..)

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by Bot0nist]




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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 15:08


B0tonist, TNP is a poor base charge in a blasting cap for it's reactivity (with metal and metal salts)
SA*DS is a good primary, I use it with an ETN base charge .25g/.7g. RDX is a good base charge, SADS is not recommended w/ RDX because reasonable amounts of SADS won't detonate the RDX reliably.

You can experiment/research with NPED's. Something's telling me there has to be a way to make an NPED reliable, we just haven't found it yet. I'd use an ordinary cap over an NPED today, but I'd use an NPED over any peroxide any day of the week.


Whatever you do, do not start walking up to a charge w/ an NPED detonator thinking it didn't work without waiting for a bit.

[Edited on 26-12-2013 by Turner]
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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 15:26


I found kalium (potassium) picrate about as useful as tits on a bull for initiating purposes, maybe an acceptable flash igniter though.

What is wrong with TNP and aluminum? Unless there is moisture the reaction between metal and TNP is extremely slow and in the case of aluminum the picrate is actually less sensitive than pure TNP. Not all picrates are more sensitive than TNP. With TNP, however, caps have to be made bigger, because of a relatively large critical diameter and to accommodate the larger amount of TNP to do the same job as many of the alternatives. It is also relatively insensitive so more primary has to be used than is needed for most other base charges (such as the solid nitrate esters & RDX). Picric acid is however a very safe initiator to use with fairly high VOD and initiating ability and it is extremely storage stable.

I am just estimating but I bet a person could accomplish more, much of the time in terms of initiation, with 0.2 g of lead azide than with a gram of acetone peroxide. Even if the 2 were equally hazardous, weight for weight, which I don't believe they are, using just 0.2 g vs. 1 g would result in a huge reduction in danger. Acetone peroxide sublimes and is lost if left uncovered or forms those big beautiful crystals if covered in a matter of weeks. I used to cringe at the sound they would make (crunching sound) when a gram or so was pressed into a paper casing (what was I thinking?). Most primaries, that are used, have properties that are much more consistent than TATP from batch to batch and stable with storage and time. One of the biggest annoyances for me was having crappy peroxide primaries that either sublime or changed in some undesirable way in a matter of days or weeks. It is a real joy to be able to use a fraction of the primary explosive weight that is needed with peroxides and also to come back to it a year later and the change in the material is basically so small as to be unperceivable. It is good to know how to make and use peroxides, but really there are many better choices for your regular use primary. It will, of course, take a little more effort though.

BTW, I am not really that invested one way or the other whether you use this primary or that primary. I have a little time on my hands lately and decided to tell you a little about my experiences.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]




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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 16:06


Turner, TNP is a great booster and a great material in itself. All the briscance you'd need amd insensitive enough to handle yett sensitive enough for a tiny compound cap to do the trick. Very pure TNP is a wonderful product. You have to watch out for some metal compatiblities, but much less so than HTMD. I also never recommended it as a main charge, though it could be one, but as a booster or component in a compound cap.

Some good advice. Do a search and read every post by quicksilver and rosco bodine in the EM section. Hennig's posts too for that matter. Your off to a start, and no doubt clever, but in this hobby, never think you dont have MUCH to learn still. All I wamt is for individual research to be done, and for safety to enter into the practice. It is vital. I just want us all to exparament with what we want, but sanely is all. Call it fear mongering if you want. That is not my intention.




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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 17:58


NHN. Seems like very toxic. There's one person make it and accidentally inhale the gas that use in WW2 as poison gas and died. . Toxic chemical usually I can't get or make it. Substitution of chemical is needed Everytime.

Nah, I guess I better read more first. I'm too rush I guess.
Don't flame me man, tell me instead of flaming me, nobody like the feel of being flame :(

How do you all test the VoD of every explosive?
As Dornier328 said Armstrong mixture can be 6000m/s
If I am not mistaken la. How does that possible? Even wikipedia said Armstrong mixture Is classified as primary high explosive. Any idea with this statement? Thanks
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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 18:53


You were not beimg flamed. Only looking out for you friend. Wise choice though.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Bot0nist]




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[*] posted on 26-12-2013 at 19:37


If we keep talking about TNP, why not go a little further to DDNP. Some have mixed feelings about it when compared to LA or SA. But it's darn easy to get there if the TNP is prepared (I thought the TNP was the hardest part). Then he could load a cap with DDNP on top of TNP (or a 50/50 eutectic of DDNP/TNP), which according to this post (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=433&am...) is more sensistive and brisant than either combined. The Na2S is a photography formulary chemical to scavenge oxygen from developer solutions, so he wouldn't need to make it in a lab. The nitrite salt is very common for meat curing. It beats playing around with subliminating AP.
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[*] posted on 27-12-2013 at 00:16


Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller  
If we keep talking about TNP, why not go a little further to DDNP. Some have mixed feelings about it when compared to LA or SA. But it's darn easy to get there if the TNP is prepared (I thought the TNP was the hardest part). Then he could load a cap with DDNP on top of TNP (or a 50/50 eutectic of DDNP/TNP), which according to this post (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=433&am...) is more sensistive and brisant than either combined. The Na2S is a photography formulary chemical to scavenge oxygen from developer solutions, so he wouldn't need to make it in a lab. The nitrite salt is very common for meat curing. It beats playing around with subliminating AP.


Have you ever made it or only read about this compound? I've read some discouraging things about it. After reduction of TNP to picramic acid one has to remove sulfur from precipitate, and this op requires toxic, volatile and flammable CS2. And as a primary DDNP is nothing but shit. It is sensitive to friction and is used to ignite something- for example, in rifle's cups. If you have TNP, you may use its lead salt as a primary. It is not very efficient, but 1gr most likely will be enough to initiate pressed TNP I made TNP many times. Simple and clean procedure (been properly performed, of course). And I suspect, that contact of lead azide with TNP may be undesirable. TNP is an acid, and stronger one than HN3.




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[*] posted on 27-12-2013 at 05:31


Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  

How do you all test the VoD of every explosive?
As Dornier328 said Armstrong mixture can be 6000m/s
If I am not mistaken la. How does that possible? Even wikipedia said Armstrong mixture Is classified as primary high explosive. Any idea with this statement? Thanks


Not 6000 !
Explosion velocity 25% P+ 75% KClO3 is 600 m / s
(density 1.45 g/cm3 in plastig tube 4.8 mm )
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[*] posted on 27-12-2013 at 09:38


600m/s sounds low for a detonation. Do you have a reference for that?

Most of the alternatives in the thread are tricky or toxic. Blackpowder and NC have the advantage that they are not primary explosives and will give a good bang.
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[*] posted on 27-12-2013 at 11:00


Quote: Originally posted by Marvin  
600m/s sounds low for a detonation. Do you have a reference for that?


he is talking about a deflagration.

in hugh quantities and an initial-cap it can detonate, yes...
then it has around 2800-3500m/s...that are around the values of cheditte (xCLO3+carbon-containing stuff) - i doubt that it can exceed the 3500...
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[*] posted on 27-12-2013 at 11:36


Quote: Originally posted by Marvin  
600m/s sounds low for a detonation. Do you have a reference for that?


Measured using an ionization sensor and an oscilloscope.
This is not a deflagration. More like a low-velocity detonation.
Explosion passed through metal barriers. Due to the pressure. No heat transfer or hot particles.
All mixes fuel - oxidizer explode in this mode.
another example:
33% Pb (H2PO2) 2 + 67% Pb (NO3) 2
in 4.8mm plastic tube
1.4 g/cm3 238 +/- 5 m/s
2.0 g/cm3 304 +/- 6 m/s
This is less than the speed of sound in air! (330 m/s). But the explosion did not fit the definition of deflagration.

Explosion velocity of cheditte I have not tested.Maybe the truth more than 2000.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Etanol]
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[*] posted on 27-12-2013 at 12:10


I have never successfully made DDNP, though I have attempted the synthesis using sulfur a couple of times, so I can't give a firsthand account regarding relative performance. I have been reading from these forums and from texts a lot in the last few years and the consensus seems to be that pure DDNP (not in a primer mixture) would be a very good initiator, but the synthesis for most is full of problems and that effort would be better spent on a different primary.

Rosco stated that lead picrate was a very poor initiator for picric acid, and from my own tests I would have to agree with him. If anyone here can make it work, please show how you got it to work because it would be an extremely useful process. Depending on the size and design of the cap, initiating picric acid can be difficult even with better initiators. Many homemade picric acid samples probably have at least 1-2% DNP in them, which would significantly reduce sensitivity relative to a pure sample (nothing is 100% pure, but you get the idea). I don't have exact numbers to quote, but especially in small diameters approaching the critical diameter for the pure material small amounts of impurities could make a big difference.

TNP is a much stronger acid (pKa 0.38 vs. pKa 4.6 for hydrazoic acid), but its solubility in water especially at normal temperatures is quite low (lead azide also has very low solubility in water). The two dry solids are also only in contact at the interface between the base charge and primary in the cap. With low moisture content (both lead azide and picric acid are non hygroscopic), and a hermetically sealed blasting cap casing, reaction between the two should be extremely minimal. I have stored caps of this type for several weeks and they didn't show any signs of decomposition. It is possible to put some sort of thin barrier between the base charge and primary if it is deemed appropriate as well. Of course the best advice is to not store materials and components of this nature. Observing these materials over time can give valuable information though, if done carefully.

[Edited on 28-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]




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[*] posted on 27-12-2013 at 12:19


Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
I found kalium (potassium) picrate about as useful as tits on a bull for initiating purposes, maybe an acceptable flash igniter though.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]

I have the feeling that if you allow the Lead/Potassium picrate to DDT in a thick walled metal tube, you'll have pretty good velocity and energy density at the bottom, where for example may be TNP. It may just take 5grams instead of 0.5 if it was azide.

To all that ones who claim AP is inefficient primary-it wakes up Tetryl in the confinement of a straw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGY1pPwyduE
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[*] posted on 27-12-2013 at 12:48


Quote: Originally posted by Etanol  
Measured using an ionization sensor and an oscilloscope.
This is not a deflagration. More like a low-velocity detonation.
Explosion passed through metal barriers. Due to the pressure. No heat transfer or hot particles.
All mixes fuel - oxidizer explode in this mode.
another example:
33% Pb (H2PO2) 2 + 67% Pb (NO3) 2
in 4.8mm plastic tube
1.4 g/cm3 238 +/- 5 m/s
2.0 g/cm3 304 +/- 6 m/s
This is less than the speed of sound in air! (330 m/s). But the explosion did not fit the definition of deflagration.

Explosion velocity of cheditte I have not tested.Maybe the truth more than 2000.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Etanol]

Can you explain to me what do you mean by "This is less than the speed of sound in air! (330 m/s). But the explosion did not fit the definition of deflagration"?

Dany.
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[*] posted on 27-12-2013 at 13:01


@ Ral123
I found AP worked just fine for dynamite for example, but when I tried using it to initiate picric acid it was just frustration after frustration. At one point I tried to initiate 1.5 or 2 g of picric acid (high purity) in a 3/8" aluminum tube with 1 g or more of very well pressed AP. The result was no detonation, but a lovely yellow cloud of vaporised picric acid. From reading, apparently it was a common scene on the battle field during the years picric acid was used in shells and such to see big clouds of yellow smoke (which was sometimes mistaken for a poison gas attack).

I think that was one of the big reasons for changing from picric acid to tetryl, it was easier to initiate, more reliable and more powerful as well.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]




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[*] posted on 27-12-2013 at 13:45


Caterpillar

Like I said, some have mixed feelings about it compared to LA, SA, or others. It might be sensitive to friction, but not like AP.

I made it recently, but haven't had a chance to press it into a cap. I agree the TNP should be easy, but I strayed and tried to use ammonium nitrate as the nitrate salt. So it gave me a little trouble, that and my temps were usually only running in the 105 range, not high enough for timely yields, so I ended up with a dirty, but functional TNP. Like I said, my hardest part was the the TNP. I sourced Na2S.3H2O from a photo supplier, so I didn't have any residual sulfur in the picramic acid resulting from the NaOH/S step. I will say that I tried sodium ascorbate but I couldn't get it to reduce, probably a matter of temperature. Technical grade Na2S is really the trick, because it also reduces at low temperatures. The DDNP flashed cleanly unconfined, and I never noticed precipitated sulfur. But I could just be dumb about these things. I can't say anything about effectiveness. You may be right that it isn't effective for detonating, I can't say, but maybe Mark Gollum can chime in (https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=43...) since he has a similar experience on the reduction.

Once I get it pressed, I'll try it in sand to check it for proper detonation/brisance. There are some journal articles I can use to compare this against, which at least hold up the perfectly made product as being capable, if only as a mid-tier compound. I guess my point is, I'd rather the OP be frustrated trying to perfect his method than fall out of the 10finger club going after the low peroxide fruit. He could go the other way and go after the top shelf primaries.



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[*] posted on 27-12-2013 at 14:00


Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
@ Ral123
I found AP worked just fine for dynamite for example, but when I tried using it to initiate picric acid it was just frustration after frustration. At one point I tried to initiate 1.5 or 2 g of picric acid (high purity) in a 3/8" aluminum tube with 1 g or more of very well pressed AP. The result was no detonation, but a lovely yellow cloud of vaporised picric acid. From reading, apparently it was a common scene on the battle field during the years picric acid was used in shells and such to see big clouds of yellow smoke (which was sometimes mistaken for a poison gas attack).

I think that was one of the big reasons for changing from picric acid to tetryl, it was easier to initiate, more reliable and more powerful as well.

[Edited on 27-12-2013 by Hennig Brand]

It worked with a cardboard tube and a little AP for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopnxUnyxAQ
It did fail where the Tetryl went off however(the straw test)
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