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Author: Subject: Primary Explosive questions
roXefeller
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[*] posted on 30-12-2013 at 12:41


Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
I cannot confirm such info, but one of my friends told me, that if one want to kill himself, an ordinary hand grenade must be used in a special way. It must be exploded, near one's heart in a particular position- its cumulative jet must go just through heart. Otherwise it won't kill- some scratches and contusion. He was in Afghanistan, where to be captured with locals means more than unpleasant death.


Not to speak ill of the men over there, but this sounds like the kind of hearsay that gets passed around. Assuming the grenade isn't held right, the idea is there isn't an actual intrusion into the body. There is still a wave that will pass through. The organs of the body don't like these waves, spleens, livers etc. The aorta would likely also be damaged. I had a deer take a hit outside my house. The impact alone made split pea soup throughout the visceral organs. Liver was blown open. Liver and spleen are very vascular. No bodily intrusion though, just contusions on the skin (really big ones). All this leads to internal bleeding that likely won't be treated. At most this kind of hearsay will keep the mortally wounded combatmen from giving their kill shot over to the enemy, who would love to make the most of the fleeting moments of a wounded American.

Definitely don't want to give some lurking k3wl any ideas on EM being benign enough to defeat by staying out of the direction of shape jets.
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caterpillar
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[*] posted on 30-12-2013 at 21:58


OK, I have an explosion equal to 1-2 hand grenades not far from me- 1 m, no more. Assume, you are about to die within an hour due to internal bleeding. But it won't make you happier, if you have regained conscience and see some faces with beards around yourself. (Sorry, people, we are off- topic).



Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 01:40


Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
and what do you mean by superheated hydrogen??? or your are trying to say another thing?

Dany.

There are few people on this forum who would take it so literally. I wonder why they don't add Al in grenades. HE ones rely on the blast wave and the fragmentation ones need moderate brisanse to work properly.


Yes, Al is one way to crank things up a notch. I wager it'd be used by the military all the time if not for cost. They're real cheapskates. Unbelievably so.

Also this hypothetical talking of suicideing is not a good one to be having is it. Especially considering what someone did in a mall
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 03:02


I don't suggest HMTD or TATP or other compounds like this ,for they're very dangerous. As HMTD.under the Ipact of 0.6N.M can explore.(TATP 0.2-0.3N.m)
you can try safer primary explosives ,such as NHN ( Ni(N2H4)3(NO3)2 ).
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 06:10


Lol, the most generic reply since a while. You know what, I don't recommend NHN either, commercial slapper detonator is the good choice.
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 11:08


Quote: Originally posted by Graphite  
I don't suggest HMTD or TATP or other compounds like this ,for they're very dangerous. As HMTD.under the Ipact of 0.6N.M can explore.(TATP 0.2-0.3N.m)
you can try safer primary explosives ,such as NHN ( Ni(N2H4)3(NO3)2 ).


You should try them yourself before saying that. Make 0.1 gr and try to initiate. Hammer test, friction and so on. It seems to me, that many people take on faith things, which must be tested (scientific approach versus believer's one). Such discussion repeats same arguments many times. Well, there is another complex salt- Cu[NH3]4*[ClO3]2. Preparation looks rather simple, raw material accessible. No hydrazine.




Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Marvin
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 11:44


Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
Lol, the most generic reply since a while. You know what, I don't recommend NHN either, commercial slapper detonator is the good choice.


I'm not sure "Buy a slapper detonator" is any less generic or much of an improvement in a thread dedicated to primary explosives with no interest in secondaries.

Amount is going to be the biggest part of safety. Hydrazine is toxic and Nickel salts are poisonous and carcinogenic. I think most people would be best playing with small amounts of Nitrogen triIodide than small amounts of anything more stable and toxic.
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 12:22


Quote: Originally posted by Marvin  
Hydrazine is toxic and Nickel salts are poisonous and carcinogenic. I think most people would be best playing with small amounts of Nitrogen triIodide than small amounts of anything more stable and toxic.


THIS.

I'd rather use TATP than fuck with hydrazine and then generate finely-divided nickel particles.

If you are going to make something fancy, go with something fancy and not excessively toxic. Like silver nitrotetrazolate or something.
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 17:28


How to calculate for 2g batch? Is that lot for first timer? I wanna test out my self! Anyone agree with me?

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roXefeller
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 17:39


First time, test tube batches are good, or the smallest quantity whose reagents you can decently measure with your equipment and process with your method. This will demonstrate if you actually know what is going on when you get the proper result. If you don't have test tubes, use small jars or similar. A 2 g batch would probably come second, thats assuming you'll probably not get a perfect yield or lose some in the filtering/drying, but still have enough for a few caps. Destroy what you don't use right away though, as AP sublimates, but I think that was mentioned earlier.
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 17:46


Wait wait. . Let me ask something first. What if during the process, something wrong with my hmtd and liquid or what if the temperature rise quickly, should I consider discard it or continue with ice bath? How to actually discard explosive?? Do we must have to burn it as discard?
I'm ordering my lab glass ware.
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 18:04


Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  
Wait wait. . Let me ask something first. What if during the process, something wrong with my hmtd and liquid or what if the temperature rise quickly, should I consider discard it or continue with ice bath?


By this point you should be able to answer this yourself, by studying your notes on the process. If they are insufficient then keep searching and reading until they are sufficient for a trial batch. That is also the point of these trials, to gain a first hand knowledge of the process.

You should also search for disposal of used reagents. That is a common question.
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 18:46


Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
Quote: Originally posted by Graphite  
I don't suggest HMTD or TATP or other compounds like this ,for they're very dangerous. As HMTD.under the Ipact of 0.6N.M can explore.(TATP 0.2-0.3N.m)
you can try safer primary explosives ,such as NHN ( Ni(N2H4)3(NO3)2 ).


You should try them yourself before saying that. Make 0.1 gr and try to initiate. Hammer test, friction and so on. It seems to me, that many people take on faith things, which must be tested (scientific approach versus believer's one). Such discussion repeats same arguments many times. Well, there is another complex salt- Cu[NH3]4*[ClO3]2. Preparation looks rather simple, raw material accessible. No hydrazine.


in fact,i had initiated HMTD for more than 20 or 30 times, 500g hammer a adolt can easily initiate it ,friction:2.5kg 90° 100% fired , i think its enough for me to say that ,and,the complex salt- Cu[NH3]4*[ClO3]2 ,you will find its useless. i doubt the sensitivity may be a little high. you can refer to the GTJ theory,and a document named <handbook of explosives>
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 03:43


Quote: Originally posted by jjgoh  
Wait wait. . Let me ask something first. What if during the process, something wrong with my hmtd and liquid or what if the temperature rise quickly, should I consider discard it or continue with ice bath? How to actually discard explosive?? Do we must have to burn it as discard?
I'm ordering my lab glass ware.


I made HMTD (tried, more precisely) only once. According one famous russian book (http://pirochem.net/index.php?id1=3&category=chemvvisost...), I kept temperature below 20 Celsius. Temperature slowly went up, when it reached 20, I put reaction vessel under running water. Temperature quickly dropped down to 15, I was waiting again. After two- three hours I had an impression, that temperature stopped to grow. I leaved aforementioned vessel and went away from my home. Later, when I went back, I was informed by my sis, that that vessel started to boil and liquid in it transformed into something like gel. Since that time, I made TATP only. Clean routine, no unpleasant surprises. Few drops of HCl, and all of what I had to was to collect show white precipitate next day. Acid will evaporate, even if TATP is not washed well. I got a runaway reaction during preparation of TNP and NG. The last one was really unpleasant- only a thin door separated me from boiling mixture. I was waiting for explosion, but it did not occur. The main rule is to have in a hand-reach large volume of water with crushed ice (or show) and baking soda (to say nothing about protective goggles and gloves. If temperature goes out of control, immediately pour reaction mixture into water with ice (broke reaction vessel, if it is necessary- for example, if viscous mess did not want to leave this vessel quickly enough).




Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Dany
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 04:02


I was a fan of you caterpillar, but after reading your last post i'm completely disappointed...Are you recruiting your sister to watch your explosive formed while you're doing something else outside?...i didn't expect this from a Russian man

Dany.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Dany]
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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 05:14


Well, her sister could have a PhD in energetics, expect anything from Russians ;)

As for the NHN suggestion above, NHN have a low impact sensitivity, however extreme electric sensitivity. So sensitive that your neuron's signals have a chance of igniting/detonating it. I with my friend made NHN before, and around 0.1 gram deflagrated and then detonated on a metal spoon while my hand caught static electricity with the spoon(I was holding on the other side of the spoon so Im perfectly fine). You really want to use paper to handle NHN. Its very easy to make and is safe when you just make less than a gram and store wet. It is sensitive to flame.
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 07:49


Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
I was a fan of you caterpillar, but after reading your last post i'm completely disappointed...Are you recruiting your sister to watch your explosive formed while you're doing something else outside?...i didn't expect this from a Russian man

Dany.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Dany]


Yeah, it was my fault, but I was sure that all was over!!! Temperature was at nearly constant for half an hour. Small white crystals arose in liquid. And I did not tell her about my experiment. She heard noise, when liquid started to boil.




Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 07:51


Quote: Originally posted by Dany  
I was a fan of you caterpillar, but after reading your last post i'm completely disappointed...Are you recruiting your sister to watch your explosive formed while you're doing something else outside?...i didn't expect this from a Russian man

Dany.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Dany]


Yeah, it was my fault, but I was sure that all was over!!! Temperature was at nearly constant for half an hour. Small white crystals arose in liquid. And I did not tell her about my experiment. She heard noise, when liquid started to boil.




Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 15:25


Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  

As for the NHN suggestion above, NHN have a low impact sensitivity, however extreme electric sensitivity. So sensitive that your neuron's signals have a chance of igniting/detonating it. I with my friend made NHN before, and around 0.1 gram deflagrated and then detonated on a metal spoon while my hand caught static electricity with the spoon(I was holding on the other side of the spoon so Im perfectly fine).

I'm sorry, but this is a complete nonsense - NHN is one of the safest primaries, it never will detonate in open, and to get it to detonate you need hard metal confinement and more than a gram quantity, loaded at some specific density... less quantities in a weak casing usually make a load whistling sound or there's a bang, but no damage.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by papaya]
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 21:03


SADS is one of the safest primaries I have found. I can't get it to detonate with hammer or hammer friction test, as far as I can tell it has the approximate impact sensitivity of ETN. Store under ethanol in dark place and will last a very long time, I still have 5-7g.

However, it is HIGHLY heat sensitive, which is what you want w/ primary anyways, but it will detonate in small amounts exposed to flame with no confinement.

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[*] posted on 2-1-2014 at 00:07


Quote: Originally posted by Turner  
SADS is one of the safest primaries I have found. I can't get it to detonate with hammer or hammer friction test, as far as I can tell it has the approximate impact sensitivity of ETN. Store under ethanol in dark place and will last a very long time, I still have 5-7g.

However, it is HIGHLY heat sensitive, which is what you want w/ primary anyways, but it will detonate in small amounts exposed to flame with no confinement.



Be cautious with SADS, it does have the virtues of easy preparation, excellent flame sensitivity and quite good initiating properties. Although it also has it's vices....extreme sensitivity towards static electricity and properties tend to vary with synthesis conditions (pH, temperature, acetylene purity). To get consistent quality from batch to batch you need to control the conditions very tightly.




Exact science is a figment of imagination.......
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[*] posted on 2-1-2014 at 08:00


Quote: Originally posted by papaya  

I'm sorry, but this is a complete nonsense - NHN is one of the safest primaries, it never will detonate in open, and to get it to detonate you need hard metal confinement and more than a gram quantity, loaded at some specific density... less quantities in a weak casing usually make a load whistling sound or there's a bang, but no damage.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by papaya]


No, Ive made it and I know. Maybe I exagerated on the part of detonation, but it did deflagrate very fast. NHN is extremely sensitive toward electricstatic and friction. You can search any paper that will say that. Its friction sensitivity is only 12% of Lead azide !! (thats crazy) but its impact sensitivity is twice lower. Stated on Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics 22, 3 17-320 (1997)


[Edited on 2-1-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]
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[*] posted on 2-1-2014 at 08:10


Then why does the industry cope with lead azide's horrible toxicity, medium velocity and energy and flame sensitivity that causes a lot of complications? NHN eliminates the last problem and packs a lot more punch right?
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[*] posted on 2-1-2014 at 08:24


Anything I have read indicated that NHN wasn't nearly as efficient an initiator as LA. Many people look at some of the numbers and conclude that lead styphnate or lead picrate, for instance, would make great HE initiators, when in practise they definitely don't. LA is a great initiator in most respects, probably the most widely used and successful primary ever. I still find NHN interesting though, especially since it is advertised as being a very safe primary.



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Ral123
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[*] posted on 2-1-2014 at 14:52


"very safe primary" I hold a firm believe that the safety is in your head.
I'm pretty sure LA won't be a very good primary at all, if it's not in contact with the secondary. If there would be some separation between the primary and let's say RDX base charge. Then you need good explosive properties, rather then initiating properties. And LA doesn't cope well with the decomposition products of storage of most base charge materials.
In other words, if it's not a compound cap, why would the azide shine?
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