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Author: Subject: ETN Stability as primary explosive
trevor
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[*] posted on 7-1-2014 at 13:11
ETN Stability as primary explosive


Hi all,
I have read many posts on this forum about ETN.. Unfortunately, as he said quicksilver for this type of explosive "There is a very small amount of Research Efforts made ​​with ETN." In the article "Characterization and Analys of tetranitrate Esters" There are some tests.
Taking into consideration the preparation of 'ETN via h2so4/nh4no3 lab grade and food grade Erythritol recrystalized via ethanol 95% (food grade) (almost pure final product) and using an EBW 4Kv 2uF with a small copper wire directly in contact with the ETN for detonation. Could be considered a relatively safe detonator (not counting the risks related to 'HV)?
Treated as a primary explosive and ignoring the low melting point can be Compared with LA for impact and friction sensitivity test?
There are studies about incompatible with metals and other materials?
Someone have any links to articles covering the ETN?
Thanks a lot
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 7-1-2014 at 14:55


ETN is being compared to NG in a book I've read. MHN doesn't have the low melting point issue IIRC and should be expected to have a very low critical diameter at all times.
ETN being left all summer in the sun in black can didn't result much of decomposition signs except it became a melt in the first hot day. One year at room temperature, it looks good as new. Btw my well washed NG became rotten in two weeks because of the light.
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trevor
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[*] posted on 13-1-2014 at 13:15


Thanks for reply Ral123.
The ETN storage stability is indiscutible. A batch of ETN four years old have no decomposition signs.
But a ETN used as primary explosive [without other primaries] can be considered relatively safe to handle??
There are incompatible material to avoid?
thanks.
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 13-1-2014 at 13:21


May be we can call it relatively safe while still fresh, stored at no more then room temperature. Aluminium doesn't seem to be a problem, at least short term. Why would you care about all that, making reliable ETN only initiators is quite hard.
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trevor
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[*] posted on 13-1-2014 at 14:17


Thanks for reply.
With a EBW system loaded at 4Kv @ 2uF do the trick.. In this way the ETN only initiators are 100% reliable... and i care about etn stability.. :)
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Hennig Brand
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[*] posted on 13-1-2014 at 17:40


Do you think the 4kV, 2uF charged capacitor is safer than a little primary? Serious question, I am interested in your answer.



"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Metacelsus
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[*] posted on 13-1-2014 at 17:47


I would think that it is. You can charge the capacitor just before use, and even do so remotely. Furthermore, you don't have to deal with primary synthesis and (possibly) storage.



As below, so above.
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Hennig Brand
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[*] posted on 13-1-2014 at 17:54


I see your point, but from where I'm sitting 0.1-0.2g of primary accidently detonating is not usually lethal, and that cap easily could be. HV capacitors make me nervous, but like anything else (including primaries) they can be handled safely.



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Ral123
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[*] posted on 13-1-2014 at 23:48


Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
Do you think the 4kV, 2uF charged capacitor is safer than a little primary? Serious question, I am interested in your answer.

You can have 5g ETN booster and micro straw detonator with 200mg primary and let's say 100-200mg basecharge. If you don't hold the straw near the material, you'll be fine.
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trevor
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[*] posted on 14-1-2014 at 04:14


Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
Do you think the 4kV, 2uF charged capacitor is safer than a little primary? Serious question, I am interested in your answer.

In my opinion yes.
Although High Voltage is dangerous, effects and dangers associated with it have been studied for hundred of years. A well engineered and isolated EBW has a stable and repeatable behavior over time without unpredictable things. I'd rather have to deal with an explosive insensitive that requires considerable energy to be initialized. Considering the fact that once the EBW is tested and isolated I can decide when I load it, while a sensitive primary remains always SENSITIVE.

[Edited on 14-1-2014 by trevor]
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Fuse
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[*] posted on 14-1-2014 at 05:06


I set off a lot of charges with EBW (1uF 4kV) and 0,3g ETN.
Very reliable system.
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 14-1-2014 at 09:21


How is all that energy transferred from the capacitor to the wire and what is it made of? How is that thing triggered? I feel that the system can fail on many levels. Also what do you use to cover the wire when it's sitting in the ETN. For short term storage, switching to MHN can marginally increase reliability.
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Fuse
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[*] posted on 14-1-2014 at 23:58


I use 50mt of multicore wire (alpha wire), it's diameter is 5mm.
I trigger capacitor using a diy trigatron.
The detonator is made using shielded cable inserted into heat shrink tubing, inside there is ETN, the other end is closed with cap.
I've used that detonators after 2 years of storage and they never failed. Believe me.

Is possible to attach a photo here?
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underground
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[*] posted on 15-1-2014 at 04:22


Quote: Originally posted by Fuse  
I use 50mt of multicore wire (alpha wire), it's diameter is 5mm.
I trigger capacitor using a diy trigatron.
The detonator is made using shielded cable inserted into heat shrink tubing, inside there is ETN, the other end is closed with cap.
I've used that detonators after 2 years of storage and they never failed. Believe me.

Is possible to attach a photo here?



It sounds really cool!! photo and scheme would be awsome!!
Yes it is possible to attach a photo here...
Also is it possible to replace the capasitors with some batteries and transformers to transmorm the low voltage to high voltage, so in case of missfire you can try again ?

[Edited on 15-1-2014 by underground]
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Metacelsus
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[*] posted on 15-1-2014 at 08:19


No, it is not possible. The capacitors are necessary to provide a high current pulse. If there is a misfire, the wire is probably burned out (it just didn't initiate the explosive). Thus, trying again is pointless.



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Ral123
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[*] posted on 15-1-2014 at 09:47


Quote: Originally posted by Fuse  
I use 50mt of multicore wire (alpha wire), it's diameter is 5mm.
I trigger capacitor using a diy trigatron.
The detonator is made using shielded cable inserted into heat shrink tubing, inside there is ETN, the other end is closed with cap.
I've used that detonators after 2 years of storage and they never failed. Believe me.

Is possible to attach a photo here?

How big is the capacitor bank and at what wire length can it operate?
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trevor
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[*] posted on 15-1-2014 at 14:44


To work properly, you must have a minimum of 4 microwave capacitors in series / parallel for reach the 4Kv @ 1uF.
With this configuration eyou can reach the 30 meters of cable with no loss of reliability.
It 'important to remember that the member "fuse" was essential to achieve these performance.
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Fuse
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[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 00:45


@underground
I've attached photos of EBW ETN cap. It is complete hermetic.



01.JPG - 87kB 02.JPG - 85kB 03.JPG - 68kB 04.JPG - 81kB 05.JPG - 78kB 06.JPG - 59kB 07.JPG - 99kB 08.JPG - 72kB 09.JPG - 135kB
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underground
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[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 01:27


Fuse thanks a lot!!! i will try it!! Just awsome!!Some info more please, does the 2 wires are connected together with something at the No1 photo, or it is just a cut wire ? Also can you tell us the capacitors you use for detonation and how you trigger them in more details ? :)


EDIT:
I was thinking for that also, but i do not know if it is is possible. As i said before, use some batteries and transformers, but now to charge the high V. capacitors for multiple detonations, without charging and discharging the capacitors all the time, and do it remotely with a radio RC circuit and a relay!!

[Edited on 16-1-2014 by underground]




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Krakermanworks
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[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 01:49


Hi, I've heard etn can be detonated reliably with just tinfoil/aluminium wrapper and rcandy (60:40 mix of kno3:sugar) has anyone had success with this method as the only primers I'm available to are tatp/hmtd which I'd rather not handle, thanks.


[Edited on 16-1-2014 by Krakermanworks]
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underground
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[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 02:03


Quote: Originally posted by Krakermanworks  
Hi, I've heard etn can be detonated reliably with just tinfoil/aluminium wrapper and rcandy (60:40 mix of kno3:sugar) has anyone had success with this method as the only primers I'm available to are tatp/hmtd which I'd rather not handle, thanks.


[Edited on 16-1-2014 by Krakermanworks]



It looks that it works, check that video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVmMedPfKn4
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Fuse
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[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 02:21


@underground

In the #1 image you can see the violet cable cut, inside it there are 2 wires: blue and white.
You have to cut about 5mm of the thin copper that you can see on the left part of image and solder between blue and white wire.

Check my videos on youtube, search "Exploding bridgewire detonator" and "direct detonation of ETN"
(There I've different name, it is "freepatentsonline")
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underground
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[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 02:46


Thanks!!
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 08:57


Set off picric acid with that, and I'll expect it to be reliable with ETN/MHN. What's the purpose of the tiny capacitors?
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Fuse
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[*] posted on 16-1-2014 at 09:45


The purpose of tiny capacitors is simply to stop the pipe :)
With the cap I set off ammonium nitrate based mixtures.
AN/Al, AN/Al/Oil, AN/Al/ethylene glycol, and other with charcoal, sugar and sulphur..
All mixes detonated.
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