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Author: Subject: EGDN vs. NG
Turner
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[*] posted on 7-1-2014 at 15:36
EGDN vs. NG


Which has a higher VOD?

depending on which page you visit, wikipedia gives anywhere from 7,300 to 8,100 m/sec for EGDN and around 7,700 m/sec for NG. I want to know which has higher brisance? Nitroglycerin is more dense than EGDN, is it more powerful? EGDN has an RE factor of 1.66 vs NG of 1.5 according to WP

I am really unsure about what I should believe.
On EGDN wikipedia page, it says it is more brisant than NG but slower velocity.. ????



[Edited on 7-1-2014 by Turner]
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Zyklon-A
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[*] posted on 7-1-2014 at 16:13


Are you capable of testing this yourself? I don't know.
PS. Next time you should put questions like this in the The Short Questions Thread.




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Dany
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[*] posted on 7-1-2014 at 17:13


According to [1] NG (7649 m/s) has a slightly higher detonation velocity than EGDN (marked as GD in the article, 7356 m/s). However EGDN has higher calculated detonation temperature and a higher energy density.

for the calculation of detonation pressure PCJ i will consider that the detonation products is a polytropic gas and uses the following relationship:

PCJ= ρ0D2/Ɣ+1, where Ɣ is the adiabatic exponent. However, i will not use the value Ɣ=3 as usual, but i will calculate Ɣ according to "rule of gamma" [2] which proved useful for the calculation of unknown PCJ. so from [2] Ɣ= 0.655/ρ0 +0.702+1.107(ρ0). From the calculation we obtain for NG (241 kbar) and EGDN (212 kbar).

the 2 paper [1] and [2] have important informations to read. i attached [1] here.

Reference

[1] G. D. Kozak, Measurement and Calculation of the Ideal Detonation Velocity for Liquid Nitrocompounds, Combustion, Explosion, and Shock Waves, 34, No. 5, 1998.

[2] MORTIMER J. KAMLET and JAMES M. SHORT, The Chemistry of Detonations. VI. A "Rule for Gamma" as a Criterion for Choice Among Conflicting Detonation Pressure Measurements, COMBUSTION AND FLAME , 38, 221-230, 1980.

Dany.



Attachment: Measurement and calculation of the ideal detonation velocity for liquid nitrocompounds.pdf (498kB)
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Turner
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[*] posted on 7-1-2014 at 18:36


Because my next test will probably be with a liquid explosive and I am debating whether I should do EGDN or nitroglycerin.

Thank you Dany that is VERY Helpful I will spend some time reading about those things.
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[*] posted on 7-1-2014 at 18:50


I'm too scared to make either, but I think nitroglycerin is better.



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[*] posted on 7-1-2014 at 21:47


I heard this EGDN has more brisance than NG but not so much
I love NG much more than EGDN and I don't know why :D
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 00:21


EGDN-higher yields, high storage stability and safety, more reliable high order detonation even at smaller diameters. Runaways don't tend to destroy the lab.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 09:09


According to both Trauzl and Hess Lead block test results in Tenney Davis Chemistry of Powder & Explosives, you'll get more expansion volume or block compression of EGDN.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauzl_lead_block_test

http://books.google.com/books?id=xyRG0J6VCPsC&pg=PA359&a...

COPAE is available here:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/the_chemistry_of...

EGDN has a higher vapor pressure at room temperature than NG. The headaches from EGDN vapors are quicker to come on and perhaps more severe than those from NG. I would not advise you to make either of these things, but if you must- Work in a well ventilated area, and have a double espresso available to counteract...

[Edited on 8-1-2014 by Bert]




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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 09:47


But why you advise against EGDN Bert, it's one of the more friendly high R.E. energetics. It's not carcinogenic as many other materials witch will cause harm with out feeling them. It's best used in a sealed dark bottle alone.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 13:29


I ate ETN once, and my headache was nasty for the next 6 hours, the thought of that again has been what deterred me from bothering with the liquids.


If EGDN's density was just a bit higher, it would be an amazingly powerful AND brisant explosive.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 13:36


Higher energy density then HMX and still is the cheapest/easiest nitric ester to produce and purify at home.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 14:09


In the attached paper (see below), you will find a list of explosive brisance (relative to TNT taken as 100%). The recently published paper, give an easy method for the calculation of explosive brisance (for pure, mixed and aluminized explosive). from the paper the EGDN is slightly more brisant than NG (129 vs 120% respectively, relative to TNT 100%). the experimental list is taken from:

B. T. Fedoroff, 0. E. Sheffield, G. D. Clift, E. F. Reese, Encyclopedia
of Explosives and Related Items, Vol. 2, PATR 2700, Picatinny
Arsenal, Dover, NJ 1962.

read this paper and the reference therein.

Dany.

Attachment: Prediction of the Brisance of Energetic Materials.pdf (271kB)
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 14:31


Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
But why you advise against EGDN Bert, it's one of the more friendly high R.E. energetics. It's not carcinogenic as many other materials witch will cause harm with out feeling them. It's best used in a sealed dark bottle alone.


It's not that EGDN is bad of itself- Or nitroglycerin either. Both have been made and used in industrial quantities for a long time, they were USUALLY made without incident. Of course, what incidents occured were very ah, memorable, shall we say?

I just wouldn't advise anyone to make high explosives. The fact that I might have done such things as a teenager and lived was as much luck as skill, I have come to realize now that I have a good bit more information available than 40 years ago along with a bit of experience and memories of some people who were NOT lucky..

That's why I generally post boring safety related stuff and links to referances rather than videos of blowing $hi+ up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK0TneymrCM

[Edited on 8-1-2014 by Bert]




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4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 15:25


What's the formula for working out a rough estimate of the yield? I.e the ratio of Ethylene glycol or Glycerol to the end product?
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 15:47


Ethylene glycol = x molar mass

1molEG needs 2molNO3 (whether that is NH4NO3, HNO3 etc.) to make 1 mol of EGDN.

In most cases this is true for nitrations, except RDX which produces by products like tetranitromethane
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 19:53


30ml purified EGDN or about 5g RDX can be made after wasting about 50ml WFNA.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2014 at 20:40


I read that a mix of PGDN/EGDN is more powerful than either on its own. Read it in a patent though. Probably not the most trustworthy source ;)
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[*] posted on 9-1-2014 at 12:01


Ral123,

You have made EGDN, did you feel headache after the handling ever ? How did you handle it ? I would like to know some of your experience. Thanks.
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[*] posted on 9-1-2014 at 12:17


With NG/NC/ETN mixture the headache comes when you play with it too much and smell it and it persists. With EGDN some can get headache from smelling it a few times. I suppose in a well ventilated area, if you don't spill it in your glove, you'll be fine.
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[*] posted on 9-1-2014 at 23:45


How bad was the headache ? Ive heard some was terrible to experience.. A paper on nitroglycerin also said workers who worked with NG for a long time start to not experience headache any more even if they ingested it ....
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[*] posted on 10-1-2014 at 09:51


It's fine, at least you're not afraid of cancer after it, like if you've played with hydrazine or inhaled RDX/Tetryl dust.
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[*] posted on 10-1-2014 at 14:09


RDX give one cancer? I don't know this.
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[*] posted on 10-1-2014 at 14:37


I'm not an expert, but I'd take the nitrates first, then the nitro compounds and last the nitramines and nitrosoamines.
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