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deltaH
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Legally developing and researching EM by collaboration
I have an idea for an energetic material I would like to research and develop legally, prefferably by collaboration in exchange for shared
intellectual property rights.
Any takers or suggestions?
Thanks.
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simply RED
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Give some more data, make presentation etc...
When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead...
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Dany
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You can develop an energetic material theoretically. By proposing a new structure you can predict heat of formation and density which enable you to
calculate detonation performance of a given molecule. Heat of formation and density can be predicted based on quantum chemical softwars or based on
empirical methods (e.g., group additivity). This what is call legal. Any experimental development without a licence is in most country, illegal.
Dany.
[Edited on 22-4-2014 by Dany]
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Bert
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Without any data or description of your concept, this OP doesn't yet meet the criteria for a new thread in EM.
If we're now just discussing the possibility of doing such things, rather than a specific chemistry/engineering project- Perhaps this thread might be
better in "Legal & Societal Issues"?
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Praxichys
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The legality of this in the USA is questionable.
There are loopholes in the system. Suppose this new structure wasn't supposed to be exposive? In front of a judge, it could be compared to something
like melamine. Perhaps you were working on a new type of fire retardant when you "accidentally" discovered it was explosive instead?
Sure, the handling of explosives is regulated... but what about ammonium nitrate? You can buy it in 3kg lots by getting cases of cold packs, and
somehow that slips right by regulation. So suppose this new compound was supposed to be extremely insensitive? How legal would that be?
I think you could outright get away with the legitimate development of a new energetic comound in the USA so long as you were never endangering
anybody or anything other than your own property. Of course, the testing would have to be very small scale and there would be absolutely no
transporting it from the point of manufacture, and storage is highly regulated if kept for more than 24h, but I do not believe there are any laws
specifically regarding synthesis.
Besides, they're not just going to throw someone in jail for routinely synthesizing a novel and unpatented compound in amounts too small to harm much
of anything, or transporting very dilute, virtually inert solutions of said compounds in NMR tubes to the local univeristy. Even if they found
something to charge you with, you could talk your way out of it in court. The reason these things are illegal is because nobody wants to be blown up
by their neighbor, and nobody wants to let kids become domestic terrorists without some sort of governmental threat to deter that.
Bottom line: As long as you are researching the material and not its applications, you make and have on hand less than 10-ish grams at any one time,
you take great safey precautions yourself, you make sure your neighbors and house guests are in absolutely zero danger, your neighbors do not hear or
see or smell anything, you aren't creating or releasing hazardous waste, and this is all for the benefit of something for the defense of the
country... I do not see a problem. So, do that and keep a well-written lab notebook and everthing will be fine.
Remember, the laws are in place to prevent people from hurting each other. If you can prove that your methods could never hurt anyone, it's not
against the principal behind the law.
That said, I already do this. I'm currently working on the di(triaminoguanidinium) salt of bis(2,2-dinitroethyl)nitramine in the footsteps of
Klapötke. Progress is good. 
[EDIT] This does seem more relevant to L&S Issues unless we eventually get some data on this compound.
[Edited on 22-4-2014 by Praxichys]
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deltaH
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Thank you all for the contributions thus far.
@Bert
I was wondering if this is not better suited to L&S section, but I thought as it's such a EM specific thing and also since so many EM amateurists
may have a similar query, then EM would be the appropriate location?
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Bert
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There are WAYS to do this in USA. Industry does it.
License to manufacture HE (you need an inspected HE magazine for this) and record keeping is what it primarily takes here, if it's a formal business
and you wish to store samples of products.
Other issues would be Environmental Protection Administration (EPA), you can't be handling chemicals/wastes informally in a business situation. If
you're paying workers, OSHA...
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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deltaH
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@Bert,
I was following the points you made in the fireworks thread. I was thinking that this would be prohibatively costly to do (at least in South Africa),
so I was thinking perhaps such things are best done collaboratively with existing companies or research groups that are already licensed and equiped
for this?
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Praxichys
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All of my previous blather is under the premise that you are conducting your research individually or collaborating over the internet with someone
else. As mentioned, "no harm to neighbors, houseguests, etc" which includes fellow collaborators. Otherwise you might be on the hook for something.
I tried to get my HE license about a year ago but I fail the "75 feet to an occupied dwelling" criteria for the magazine by about five feet, even
though it is effectively barricaded (basement!) and the proposed amounts were too small to be of virtually any concern. Rules are rules, I guess.
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deltaH
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Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  | All of my previous blather is under the premise that you are conducting your research individually or collaborating over the internet with someone
else. As mentioned, "no harm to neighbors, houseguests, etc" which includes fellow collaborators. Otherwise you might be on the hook for something.
I tried to get my HE license about a year ago but I fail the "75 feet to an occupied dwelling" criteria for the magazine by about five feet, even
though it is effectively barricaded (basement!) and the proposed amounts were too small to be of virtually any concern. Rules are rules, I guess.
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Yes, I also looked into getting accredited myself, but it also looks like I would fail for many reasons, unless I had big bucks to build a safe
facilty to do this in, but the origional question remains... isn't this silly when we could/should be doing it by collaboration with those already
safely set up and licensed to do so?
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Davin
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Show the structure, and I can let you know if this is worth going forward with.
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deltaH
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If I post the structure and my proposed synthetic methodology, do I not shoot myself in the foot in that establishments set up to do this kind of
research legally will not be interested because it has become knowledge in the public domain and so there is no incentive for them to do the
development anymore.
In South Africa, even universities lose interest in collaborating if the information is released into the public domain 
Sad state of affairs, I agree, but what can/should one do?
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Davin
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Don't show proposed methodology then. Many people have calculated, for example, DTTO, but that does not preclude patenting by the first person to
make it (or to claim they made it, I bet it has existed for 20 years in classified Russian literature). If you have certain features that would
preclude stability, this discussion is moot.
[Edited on 22-4-2014 by Davin]
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macckone
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One trick for legality under federal law in the USA is to only make small amounts
and dispose of said compounds rather than storing them.
You can legally make explosives provided you don't store or transport them.
That is the reason binary explosives used for target practice are legal.
See this page:
http://www.atf.gov/content/Explosives/explosives-industry/ex...
This does not cover state law as there are 50 of those.
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Bert
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This is a good and interesting thread, but it does belong in L&SI for now. We will be discussing non disclosure agreements & such shortly, I
believe-
And someone in a certain country will still probably beat it to market. (insert "cynical smiley" here)
(Edit)
I do have something in the way of facilities, but would need to pick up an additional license and work out EPA for handling business related chemical
wastes. (That's going to be a bit of time & cost in USA!) It's beginning of my busy season, so not able to commit to a new project of unknown
scope-
[Edited on 22-4-2014 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Praxichys
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I too once thought I had thought of some unique compounds which would be useful energetic materials. It turns out someone wrote a paper about them
back in 2004. With the advent of computer modeling, you are better off coming up with an unexpected scheme to get to a target compound more
efficiently than you are actually inventing a new compound.
In my case with BDNENA, I see a future for it so I am attempting to develop synthetic methods beyond the hammer-and-tongs approach taken by Klapötke
and others. Such basic reactions as nitration, amination, geminal dinitronation, etc. have many published routes. There are hundreds of combinations
of procedures, each with its advantages and disadvantages, to get to my target. My goal is to find and document the most efficent way I can come up
with using the most inexpensive and easily available precursors, in as few reactions/purifications as possible.
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Dany
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...of course you will be able to make explosive without licence if you live in a "BANANA" republic
Dany.
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Praxichys
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Yes, but only if you're not a "copper 5-nitrotetrazolate."
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deltaH
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Okay okay... here it is...
 Dany 
Okay guys, I will do as I have always done then in the past, be open about my inventions, I just hope that I'm not going to get too many "oh we could
have helped but now... " 
Anyhow, yes chances are slim that it's novel I agree, but if anyone ever makes something from this, I'd appreciate a remembrance 
Ok, the compound I am thinking of is hexanitro-hexaradialene (HNHR) and my proposed synthetic methodology for preparing it would start with
hydroquinone, nitromethane, air and catalytic amounts of NO2.
While I don't have a specific reference for this, my musings are based on a couple of published info, one of which is a patent for preparing
tetrachlorobenzoquinone from HCl and peroxide, the other another paper for oxidising hydroquinone with oxygen under ambient condition using only
catalytic amounts of NO2 and a nonpolar solvent... hold on, I'll try to locate and attach...
Ah good old Erowid... here are the papers about using NOx as a catalyst to oxidise hydroquinone simply and qualitatively with O2 (I assume
air works as well).
J. Org. Chem. 59, 2529-2536 (1994),
Tet. Lett. 35(9) 1335-1338 (1994)
...and here's the patent about making chloranil:
https://www.google.com/patents/US5334735?dq=chloranil+hydrog...
Hopefully this link goes to a patent and not porn
Chemsketch predicts a density of 2.274 ± 0.06 g/cm3 (I assume by a group contribution method), but to be honest, I think something in the 1.9's would
be more realistic!
[Edited on 22-4-2014 by deltaH]
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Dany
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After 19 posts your are offering this molecule????? dear deltaH, go back to chemistry in general forum....
a pernitrated radialene has been proposed by franklyn 3 years ago, read here
Dany.
[Edited on 22-4-2014 by Dany]
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deltaH
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Thanks for the link up Dany, I failed to find that... I'll continue from there, but the 19 posts were about how/who to collaborate with to get EM
research done.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Yes hexanitroderivative would be less interesting than the dodecanitroderivative.
Anyway DeltaH, it is a good idea, and I had related ideas starting from chloranile...and from nitranilic acid derived from it via NaNO2 (the 4
chlorines are replaced by nitros and two rearrange to nitrite ester of phenol and spontaneously hydrolise into phenol to get
dinitro-dihydroxy-p-quinone...the chlorine atoms are very easily exchanged by azide anions from NaN3.
Ideas are:
-Reaction with hydrazine and oxoacid salts of the polyhydrazine; diazotation to make polyazidobenzene.
-Reaction with hydroxylamine
-Reaction with nitromethane and eventual nitrosation
-Reaction with nitroform
The results of those reactions can go in many directions but all products are very interesting HE with possible high detonic properties (density, VOD,
brisance).
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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deltaH
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You've just made 1000 posts PHILOU, congrats!
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Dany
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| Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone |
Yes hexanitroderivative would be less interesting than the dodecanitroderivative.
Anyway DeltaH, it is a good idea, and I had related ideas starting from chloranile...and from nitranilic acid derived from it via NaNO2 (the 4
chlorines are replaced by nitros and two rearrange to nitrite ester of phenol and spontaneously hydrolise into phenol to get
dinitro-dihydroxy-p-quinone...the chlorine atoms are very easily exchanged by azide anions from NaN3.
Ideas are:
-Reaction with hydrazine and oxoacid salts of the polyhydrazine; diazotation to make polyazidobenzene.
-Reaction with hydroxylamine
-Reaction with nitromethane and eventual nitrosation
-Reaction with nitroform
The results of those reactions can go in many directions but all products are very interesting HE with possible high detonic properties (density, VOD,
brisance). |
Dany.
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deltaH
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I second that Dany, PHILOU that really needs thread dedicated to it! I have another musing concerning quinone that I
will also post soon, I think there is much scope for EM and quinone and perhaps a little overlooked.
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