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len1
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Mood: NZ 1 (goal) - Italy 1 (dive)
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Im 42 and belong to a minority group on this forum in more ways than one. Sometimes I wonder why I bother. The truth is I suspect this stuff is read
more and has potential to do more good than my articles in physics journals. People often boast how many articles they have - it doesnt matter.
Hardly anyone reads these periodicals - they just collect dust on library shelves. Their use is in the citation game 'you cite me, I cite you' used
in academic circles for personal advancement. And their authors - I suspect Im in a minority of 1 there, they couldnt give two hoots about science
and integrity - 95 or so percent just use it as a tool. Some of you younger ones might think this is the musing of a disgrantled sod, see what you
think when you get to my age if you continue in science (assuming of course youre honest with yourself).
[Edited on 7-5-2008 by len1]
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-jeffB
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| Quote: | Originally posted by len1
Im 42 and belong to a minority group on this forum in more ways than one. Sometimes I wonder why I bother. The truth is I suspect this stuff is read
more and has potential to do more good than my articles in physics journals. People often boast how many articles they have - it doesnt matter.
Hardly anyone reads these periodicals - they just collect dust on library shelves. Their use is in the citation game 'you cite me, I cite you' used
in academic circles for personal advancement. And their authors - I suspect Im in a minority of 1 there, they couldnt give two hoots about science
and integrity - 95 or so percent just use it as a tool. Some of you younger ones might think this is the musing of a disgrantled sod, see what you
think when you get to my age if you continue in science (assuming of course youre honest with yourself). |
Wow.
I was about to say something about "I hope I'm not as jaded as you are by the time I reach your age", and then I realized that I'm already 45.
I'm not a principal investigator angling for grants. Hell, I'm not even a "scientist" in my day job -- I'm mostly just a programmer. But I work with
people who are doing real science, and I see what their work is like. Yes, there's a certain amount of stamp-collecting and a certain amount of
write-only publication, but most of the scientists I work with really are driven by a love of the field. They love the problem-solving. The
absolutely love accomplishing something nobody else has ever been able to do. They absolutely love being able to do something better than anyone else
has ever done it. And the very best thing is the serendipitous discovery, the observation that comes completely out of left field.
Science involves a certain amount of tedium. In fact, unwillingness to deal with that tedium is one thing that led me in another direction. But it's
not unrelieved tedium. I don't know what advice to give someone who sees no relief.
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jokull
National Hazard
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I'm 25 right now.
Sometimes I think is the quarter of my whole life because people in family lives up to 100-102 years.
I am involved in the chemical research since I was 19 studiyng plant extracts, now I work in topics related to photochemistry.
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497
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Halfway to 17.
I've loved chemistry (initially biology) ever since I was about 12 or 13.
I am eagerly waiting for a career in some sort of chemical engineering.
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azo
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You recond your supprised .
I am 46 i feel oooooooooold.
azo
[Edited on 9-5-2008 by azo]
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Saerynide
National Hazard
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Just turned 21 this year... I feel so old 
"Microsoft reserves the right at all times to monitor communications on the Service and disclose any information Microsoft deems necessary to...
satisfy any applicable law, regulation or legal process"
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chloric1
International Hazard
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I am in middle ground here. I am 35. Also, the 30's seem to be middle in numbers also I have been into chemistry for nearly 20 years. Since 1989 or 1990, I have seen remarkable changes in availability in reagents and
equipment. On one hand there was no Internet then and you really had to work to find catalog sellers that delt to individuals. On the other hand,
even with the "war on drugs" in the late 80's into the 90's there was still plenty of reagents at "speciallized" pharmacies. Anyone remember Hook's
drugs? I remember Tucket state pharamacy in the early 1990's up to 1996 had the BEST selection or chems. They had potassium nitrate, sulfur,
potassium permanganate, Trichloroethane, oxalic acid, basic bismuth nitrate, copper sulfate etc etc all in one isle!!!
I remember in 1999 when chemicals first appeared on ebay. WHOA! This is an golden opportunity to aquire reagents with little or no investigation. It
reached its peak in 2003 when I almost won an auction for one pound of sodium azide for $20!! I did not get it though . Soon after that, ebay really put there foot down and these items where no longer
permitted.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
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Location: England Germany
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| Quote: | Originally posted by len1
Im 42 and belong to a minority group on this forum in more ways than one. Sometimes I wonder why I bother. The truth is I suspect this stuff is read
more and has potential to do more good than my articles in physics journals. People often boast how many articles they have - it doesnt matter.
Hardly anyone reads these periodicals - they just collect dust on library shelves. Their use is in the citation game 'you cite me, I cite you' used
in academic circles for personal advancement. And their authors - I suspect Im in a minority of 1 there, they couldnt give two hoots about science
and integrity - 95 or so percent just use it as a tool. Some of you younger ones might think this is the musing of a disgrantled sod, see what you
think when you get to my age if you continue in science (assuming of course youre honest with yourself).
[Edited on 7-5-2008 by len1] |
You aren't alone in the world....
I hate the citation game, even at a >10 years younger age... it is so petty, so political, requires so much ass kissing and is hugely popularistic
- if your type of science is 'hot' then everyone cites you and vice versa even though this so very hot field may be a whole truckload of horseshit....
I'm speaking of the biological sciences...and there's a looot of bad science in there... I wonder how it is in the more physical sciences, I always
thought there's more truth in it?
Anyway I'm thinking this topic might deserve its own thread...something like
'The integrity of academic science today'.
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
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It is that way in chemistry too. A paper I would have been second author on was declined as a result of our reviewer(name leaked out somehow) being
in a related field, yet wanted to be cited despite his work being essentially irrelevant to the topic of our paper. The review actually said "you did
not cite the work of xxxxxxx", and xxxxxx turned out to be the reviewer who said this, not sure how that leak occured.
[Edited on 9-5-2008 by The_Davster]
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Nicodem
Super Moderator
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chemoleo
Anyway I'm thinking this topic might deserve its own thread...something like
'The integrity of academic science today'. |
Too late for that thread. The academic science already lost its integrity or else we would not have the Bologna spaghetti process in the European
universities. The selling of the universities to the corporations is more than a clear sign that the ship is going down and we with it. The corrupted
peer review system might have had a big role with this decay but it itself was probably just a phenomenon secondary to the changes in the society and
culture. The academic science simply is not compatible with the new values brought by the neoliberal society and corporative culture.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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len1
National Hazard
Posts: 595
Registered: 1-3-2007
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Mood: NZ 1 (goal) - Italy 1 (dive)
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Oh I thought I was the only one and noone would understand what Im talking about.
In that case Ill add some more info.
My first intro to the citation system, was as a green graduate who has just published his first paper. An envelope arrived soon after, it was marked
with the name of an eminent physicist in HEP, it contained nothing but his paper, which I havent read and so hadnt cited. He was inviting me to join
the game. With years I learnt that others will only cite you if you cite them - those papers you do cite because you really used them might be from 5
years ago and so will attract you no favours. Otherwise they use your work but ignore you. Thats the integrity of physics these days if anyone is
inetersted.
Lets take another example. A colleague at my dept came up with an idea that to me was obviously false - I explained why to him. Several months later
he casually informed me that this paper is accepted for publication - as if that justification replaces scientific argument. His paper took 3-4 weeks
to write with his student, got lots of citations from his 'citation gang' of international colleagues, and was mentioned as his achievement of the
year. It took me 6 months to write a paper to show that the idea is wrong and theres a gross mathematical error in the paper. It got published. I
have no 'citation gang'. I still have no citations. He is continuing to gather citations for his papers, which producing at 1/month with his
students he has a factor of ten more than me. Anyone viewing his or my CV, will have no doubt as to whos the better scientist - theres no contest.
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a_bab
Hazard to Others
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Mood: Angry !!!!!111111...2?!
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It's sad that even in science, that has to be the most correct and "human factor" free enviroment we boil down to the human faults, like envy and
others. I once assumed that some of these articles we all like to search and download, and probably many of the patents are false. What len1 said
would only confirm me this.
I'm 31 and 'been involved in science since I was maybe 2.
I sometimes ask myself what is it good for to stockpile all of these exotic or basic reagents, chems, aparatus and such whenever I have the
opportunity to get them since I have almost no time to use them. I just hope for days when I'll have more spare time, maybe when I'll get retired
or something if I'll live till then.
[Edited on 11-5-2008 by a_bab]
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Th0r
Harmless
Posts: 12
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I'm a late teen... I guess I got interested in Weapons, particularly firearms at a young age. Having one side of your family extremely Pro-Firearm
Ownership and another completely Anti-Gun Ownership makes you curious...
Then I moved on to kewl style explosives... Before advancing to proper Chemistry. A subject that fascinates me. So here I am a teenager...
As for being younger I think you guys are mostly older...
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Zinc
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I am 15 years old and I got interested in chemistry when I was 4 or 5 years old. My first "chemical experiments" were mixing paints My interest peaked when I was 13-14 years old. Now my interest in chemistry as
science has mostly faded but I make more higher quality experiments than before (although they are mostly explosives related, me and my friend
celebrated the Victory day with 150g MEKP/AP/AN). I remember the old times when I
could spend days mixing everything with anything to see what would happen I spent
hours a day reading about theoretical chemistry trying to understand how something works and why does it work like that. I was a real "science kid"
back then and wanted to be a chemist when I grow up
Now the "scientist" in me disappeared. I just don't care why something is like it is and why is it so. Chemistry in school has turned from my favorite
subject to a regular boring subject.
But I didn't and won't give up chemistry. Now I have more glassware and chemicals than ever before and a lot of practical knowledge and I do a lot of
experimenting with explosives. I have no more interest in "ordinary" experiments as they started to appear to me as useless. Whats the point of
wasting reagents to make a product that cant do anything, just sit in a bottle to look at? My theoretical knowledge has completely gone away (last
year I had a 5 (equal to A) in chemistry, now i have 1 (F), and I have no wish to bring it back. Just because I know how something works and why wont
change anything and the knowledge would just unnecessary fill the place in my brain that could be used for some other knowledge that has some
practical use. So I become very interested in metalworking, especially in metal casting.
Sorry for the lengthy post but today I was really bored and tired so I had to find something to do that doesn't require a lot of mental or physical
work
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
Posts: 1554
Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
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That sucks.
Wasn't it Adolf Hitler who said, "retain the essential and forgot the nonessential" or something like that?
Not that he's the best person to quote but it seems like that's basically what Zinc is saying. (I'm not trying to insult Zinc, Hitler is just the
only person I can remember that apparently believed that way. I mean, it's not like he didn't accomplish a lot, as horrible as it was...)
Is he on to something? Personally, I always liked to learn whatever I could whether it was "essential" or not. I'm not really concerned with my
brain "overloading". That might actually be quite an accomplishment. To have so much knowledge that you can't store anymore and your brain starts
"dumping" information by default.
I think that's what happens when some people get really old.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Chrisn
Harmless
Posts: 2
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JohnWW
I'm also in my 50s, a chemical engineer among other things. When I was in my mid-teens, I could easily get a lot of chemical stuff OTC from the local
pharmacy, or in some cases groceries, hardware stores, and farm and garden supply shops, e.g. hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, potassium
bromide and iodide, chloride of lime, sulfur, potassium nitrate, ammonium nitrate, sodium carbonate, copper sulfate, potassium permanganate, zinc
carbonate. Some are now more difficult to get. Glassware was also relatively a lot cheaper. |
I'm in NZ and can get all those chemicals plus numerous more OTC (within roughly a 5km radius of each other )
16 here btw
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indigofuzzy
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Registered: 1-10-2006
Location: DarkCity, Bay of Rainbows, Moon
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| Quote: |
someone has given all geeks a bad name and made it harder for them to go about "perfecting ways of making sealing wax", or whatever it is you do with
YOUR phosphorous
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Making sealing wax? Darn it, Seb, you may have just given me something new to research. Make sealing wax, hmm. Then I'd have to start writing letters, and buying stamps, just to have fun with such newfound "gothic" elegance
But red's really not my color, so I doubt I'll be needing phosphorus, maybe some copper acetylsalicilate, or copper acetate as pigments.
[edited: fixed spelling error.]
[Edited on 5.14.2008 by indigofuzzy]
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Jor
National Hazard
Posts: 950
Registered: 21-11-2007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Zinc
I am 15 years old and I got interested in chemistry when I was 4 or 5 years old. My first "chemical experiments" were mixing paints My interest peaked when I was 13-14 years old. Now my interest in chemistry as
science has mostly faded but I make more higher quality experiments than before (although they are mostly explosives related, me and my friend
celebrated the Victory day with 150g MEKP/AP/AN). I remember the old times when I
could spend days mixing everything with anything to see what would happen I spent
hours a day reading about theoretical chemistry trying to understand how something works and why does it work like that. I was a real "science kid"
back then and wanted to be a chemist when I grow up
Now the "scientist" in me disappeared. I just don't care why something is like it is and why is it so. Chemistry in school has turned from my favorite
subject to a regular boring subject.
But I didn't and won't give up chemistry. Now I have more glassware and chemicals than ever before and a lot of practical knowledge and I do a lot of
experimenting with explosives. I have no more interest in "ordinary" experiments as they started to appear to me as useless. Whats the point of
wasting reagents to make a product that cant do anything, just sit in a bottle to look at? My theoretical knowledge has completely gone away (last
year I had a 5 (equal to A) in chemistry, now i have 1 (F), and I have no wish to bring it back. Just because I know how something works and why wont
change anything and the knowledge would just unnecessary fill the place in my brain that could be used for some other knowledge that has some
practical use. So I become very interested in metalworking, especially in metal casting.
Sorry for the lengthy post but today I was really bored and tired so I had to find something to do that doesn't require a lot of mental or physical
work |
If the science behind something doesn't matter to you, just the BOOM, you should be here on sciencemadness.
Im 18.
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Jor
National Hazard
Posts: 950
Registered: 21-11-2007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Zinc
I am 15 years old and I got interested in chemistry when I was 4 or 5 years old. My first "chemical experiments" were mixing paints My interest peaked when I was 13-14 years old. Now my interest in chemistry as
science has mostly faded but I make more higher quality experiments than before (although they are mostly explosives related, me and my friend
celebrated the Victory day with 150g MEKP/AP/AN). I remember the old times when I
could spend days mixing everything with anything to see what would happen I spent
hours a day reading about theoretical chemistry trying to understand how something works and why does it work like that. I was a real "science kid"
back then and wanted to be a chemist when I grow up
Now the "scientist" in me disappeared. I just don't care why something is like it is and why is it so. Chemistry in school has turned from my favorite
subject to a regular boring subject.
But I didn't and won't give up chemistry. Now I have more glassware and chemicals than ever before and a lot of practical knowledge and I do a lot of
experimenting with explosives. I have no more interest in "ordinary" experiments as they started to appear to me as useless. Whats the point of
wasting reagents to make a product that cant do anything, just sit in a bottle to look at? My theoretical knowledge has completely gone away (last
year I had a 5 (equal to A) in chemistry, now i have 1 (F), and I have no wish to bring it back. Just because I know how something works and why wont
change anything and the knowledge would just unnecessary fill the place in my brain that could be used for some other knowledge that has some
practical use. So I become very interested in metalworking, especially in metal casting.
Sorry for the lengthy post but today I was really bored and tired so I had to find something to do that doesn't require a lot of mental or physical
work |
If the science behind something doesn't matter to you, just the BOOM, you shouldn't be here on sciencemadness.
I don't remember when I started to get interest in home-chemistry. But science since was very young.
Im 18.
[Edited on 19-5-2008 by Jor]
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Zinc
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jor
If the science behind something doesn't matter to you, just the BOOM, you should be here on sciencemadness.
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Why not? I can find a lot of practical knowledge here.
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Rich_Insane
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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13 now. Just setting up my lab.
My interest started young, when I was reading some textbooks, not getting a thing. When I was 10, I began researching explosives, and designing
devices from theoretical reactions. Now I am 13, about tot take the AP Exam for Chemistry next year (I just took Bio this year instead of Chem,
because I wasn't well prepared). I am more interested in Energetics and Biochemistry, especially alkaloid/protein extraction.
[Edited on 12-5-2009 by Rich_Insane]
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Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
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You folks are alot younger then I anticipated. I expected the range to be somewhere within the 30-50 range and here I am 27 thinking Im a youngin. Now
I feel old.
Iv been playing with chemistry since I was 12 and made my first electrolysis setup for a sciencefair and the things I would do for the chemistry set I
had back then with hardly any use for it.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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kclo4
National Hazard
Posts: 916
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Location:
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Well, a lot of these users who vote here probably come and go. I get the feeling that most of the people here that post and are well known are around
20+
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Rogeryermaw
National Hazard
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Registered: 18-8-2010
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i made my start in chemistry way too late in life. i'm 35 going on 60 (judging by all the pops and creaking bones) and only really took an interest
maybe 7-8 months ago. but i have at least been involved in science and technology most of my life. perhaps schooling would be beneficial since
everything i have learned has been self taught. i started with electronics at around 8 or 9 and went through phases. electronics, carpentry,
metalworking, auto mechanics, computer sciences, and now chemistry.
i have loved and hated, been inspired by and totally let down by every bit of it and would not trade any of it for the world. figuring out problems on
my own has been incredibly frustrating at times (i know many of you have felt exactly what i'm talking about, having a theory and working weeks or
months to see it fall apart in your hands) but also been so uplifted to see something you've worked for come to fruition.
it has given me a level of self reliance and skill that so many in this world are lacking. so maybe i can't go and buy the latest $5,000 home theater
on a whim but i can put on a more entertaining show in my workshop any day of the week.
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Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
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older than dirt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdquTQYybAQ&fmt=18 This Is All I Ask
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frlkD3cd1rQ&fmt=18 Sleepy Lagoon
[Edited on 9-10-2010 by Rosco Bodine]
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