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AvBaeyer
National Hazard
Posts: 644
Registered: 25-2-2014
Location: CA
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Just a quick comment on thionyl chloride. Several of my chemist friends out here in the California biotech world at several companies are having to do
quite a paperwork shuffle to get ANY quantity of thionyl chloride. Most of this seems to be internal legal stuff of a CYA nature but it still causes
slowdowns and hassles.
Dr Bob is quite correct in saying that a small amount of thionyl chloride will last a long time. Moreover, as it ages it really needs to be carefully
distilled to get reliable and reproducible results for acid chloride preparation. Oxalyl chloride - DMF is a much better reagent for that purpose.
AvB
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tomholm
Owner of BME Lab and Science and Elemental Scientific
Posts: 181
Registered: 24-2-2014
Location: United States
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Mood: Good
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Good discussion. I'm enjoying the comments and learning a lot about some of the quantities that you are looking for. I'll be reviewing the suggested
chemicals and seeing what I can get and what I feel comfortable breaking down into smaller quantities. I think over time, we'll get this program
refined.
Some additional comments.
Thionyl Chloride - Yes, I can get it, but it requires the end user to complete an intended use form and it must be shipped freight for
all quantities, even 1 gram. Freight costs will vary, but I was quoted $100 to ship one small bottle. And keep in mind, I
can't spread these charges over multiple purchases. Even if I buy a ton of it and pay freight to have it delivered to me, I then have
to pay $100 or more in freight to ship it to each purchasing customer. The other option is to have it dropped shipped directly to the purchasing
customer, but then I incur freight for each customer. I don't see any way around it. Hard to justify for small quantity purchases.
Bulk/larger purchases - While I know that if I buy some of these chemicals in larger quantities and break them down into smaller quantities, I could
lower the cost and probably increase my margins. However, this works out only if I can more accurately predict the amount that will be sold. For
these special order chemicals, they don't have a history that will indicate how much will be sold and I need to consider how much I may get stuck with
in inventory. Some of these may not have a long shelf life or may need refrigeration. Thus, it's safer to purchase in quantities that I know can be
sold or are pre-sold until I get a better history on demand.
Small quantities and shipping - Generally, the quantity of the chemical (in the levels that we are typically dealing with) does not determine whether
it can be shipped via UPS or FedEx. For ground, chemicals that have limits usually have limits of 2.5 liters or more per package. Air shipments
have different restrictions and generally smaller quantity limits per package. That said, quantities do play a bigger role in determining whether
hazardous shipping charges apply. Many chemicals are considered hazardous, but fall under quantity exceptions that allow them to be
shipped without paying the extra hazardous shipping charges ($30). These quantity exceptions are generally in the 1 Liter range. Additionally, these
exceptions can differ from shipper to shipper.
Poison Pack Exception - Some hazardous chemicals can be shipped without the hazardous shipping charges if the shipper uses special packaging (poison
packs). We charge $17.50 for the poison packs, but it saves on the $30 charge. Again, these exceptions can differ between shippers.
Again, I appreciate these discussions and feel that with a little more practice, it will come together and we'll be able to get you many of the
chemicals that you are looking for.
Tom
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DieForelle
Hazard to Self
Posts: 61
Registered: 2-2-2012
Location: East Coast
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AvBaeyer - California apparently now has an extra layer of regulatory idiocy on top of the ones they already had before. (prior 10 years versus
previous to prior 10 years) That is probably what they are experiencing. Something like a 21 day hold on certain chemicals even for institutional
buyers? LMAO. As though a rogue PhD at USC who is secretly planning a chemical weapons attack (we know how often THAT happens!) will be deterred by
waiting 21 days.
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Artemus Gordon
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 1-8-2013
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Tom Holm,
I just want to add my thanks to you for all your hard work to help amateur chemistry. Virtually all my purchases to date have been from Elemental, and
I promise that you will always be my first choice for future purchases.
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tomholm
Owner of BME Lab and Science and Elemental Scientific
Posts: 181
Registered: 24-2-2014
Location: United States
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Mood: Good
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Quote: Originally posted by Artemus Gordon  | Tom Holm,
I just want to add my thanks to you for all your hard work to help amateur chemistry. Virtually all my purchases to date have been from Elemental, and
I promise that you will always be my first choice for future purchases.
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Thanks much for your support. We are continuing to work hard to improve and expand our services. We'll try to do whatever we can to help out.
Tom
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tomholm
Owner of BME Lab and Science and Elemental Scientific
Posts: 181
Registered: 24-2-2014
Location: United States
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Mood: Good
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Special Order Chemicals
I am looking to add to the special order chemical list available on Elemental Scientific. The plan is to leave the chemicals that are currently in
the "Special Order" category and add a few chemicals to the list every month. I will then place an order at the end of the month for the chemicals
that have been ordered.
I will be making adjustments to the special order chemicals available. Some changes will be made on the purchase quantities and some chemicals will
be added. There is also a chance that some chemicals will be removed from the list.
Right now I'm looking at possibly adding the following chemicals to the list. Please let me know your thoughts on these and if there are others you'd
like me to consider.
Cyanuric Chloride
L-Asparagine
Phosphorus tribromide
1,10-Phenanthroline ferrous sulfate
pentane
N-Phenethyl-4-piperidone
Hydrobromic Acid
Acetophenone
Benzophenone
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DJF90
International Hazard
Posts: 2266
Registered: 15-12-2007
Location: At the bench
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| Quote: Originally posted by tomholm |
Cyanuric Chloride
L-Asparagine
Phosphorus tribromide
1,10-Phenanthroline ferrous sulfate
pentane
N-Phenethyl-4-piperidone
Hydrobromic Acid
Acetophenone
Benzophenone
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You're willing to offer a Fentanyl precursor..?
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Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2531
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
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I would definitely like some phosphorous tribromide.
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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It strikes me as ironic that PBr3 can be purchased/shipped but PCl3 can not. But who knows the mind of the bureaucrat. Mind you I'm not
complaining....
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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tomholm
Owner of BME Lab and Science and Elemental Scientific
Posts: 181
Registered: 24-2-2014
Location: United States
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good
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| Quote: Originally posted by DJF90 | | Quote: Originally posted by tomholm |
Cyanuric Chloride
L-Asparagine
Phosphorus tribromide
1,10-Phenanthroline ferrous sulfate
pentane
N-Phenethyl-4-piperidone
Hydrobromic Acid
Acetophenone
Benzophenone
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You're willing to offer a Fentanyl precursor..? |
Upon further review... I think it's safe to say that N-Phenethyl-4-piperidone will not be offered.
Thanks for the good advice.
Tom
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tomholm
Owner of BME Lab and Science and Elemental Scientific
Posts: 181
Registered: 24-2-2014
Location: United States
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good
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Chemicals Added
Hi All,
I just updated the Special Order chemical list on the Elemental website: www.elementalscientific.net. Please let me know if you like what you see (or if you don't). You can start placing orders at any time prior to
September 28th.
If you haven't received your order from last month it's because I am still waiting for a couple of chemicals to arrive. I expect those early next
week. I will ship your order once I receive the remaining chemicals and am able to fulfill your order completely. Thanks for your patience.
Tom
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Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2531
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
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I have just received my order. Everything fulfills my expectations.
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tomholm
Owner of BME Lab and Science and Elemental Scientific
Posts: 181
Registered: 24-2-2014
Location: United States
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good
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Discontinued Reagents
Good to know that it all worked out. Thanks.
FYI to others - I have received all of the "Special Order" chemicals except for the Aluminum Chloride, Anhydrous. I learned today that that is
projected to ship from the supplier the week of Sep 22. As such, I will probably just go ahead and ship what I can now and ship the Aluminum Chloride
at the end of the month, after I get it. Sorry for any inconvenience, but I'm guessing we may run into a little more of this than usual since these
are typically, less popular chemicals and not always stocked.
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zenosx
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 7-7-2012
Location: East TN / Near Oak Ridge
Member Is Offline
Mood: Awaiting Results....
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I like the idea of collaborative efforts to obtain hard to get reagents. I personally live in the Oak Ridge ORNL area of East TN. If there are any
chemists that can make use of my lab (and are reputable people, I would check backgrounds as I would expect you to do of me), I would be more than
happy to accommodate them. Obviously illegal drug material is an absolute no-no, but anything else is fine by me. The only thing I lack in my lab
right now is a fume hood and a microscope and I am working on both now.
If you live in this area and want to collaborate U2U me.
A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?
Albert Einstein
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tomholm
Owner of BME Lab and Science and Elemental Scientific
Posts: 181
Registered: 24-2-2014
Location: United States
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good
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Special Order Deadline Sep. 28
Hi All,
Just a reminder - the cutoff for this month's special chemical order is this Sunday, the 28th.. Please place your order before that
date!
Also, an update for those still waiting for last month's order. The hold up has been the Aluminum Chloride Anhydrous. The latest estimated ship date
from my supplier is 9-26. I'll get that out as soon as I get it in. [FYI, I also ordered a couple extra, so if you didn't order
Aluminum Chloride Anhydrous last month and would like some, I suggest you order quickly and I should be able to fill your order quickly, using the
extra from last month's order.]
Tom
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tomholm
Owner of BME Lab and Science and Elemental Scientific
Posts: 181
Registered: 24-2-2014
Location: United States
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good
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N,N-Diisopropylethylamine, Hunig's base
FYI. I've added a new, special order chemical:
N,N-Diisopropylethylamine, Hunig's base 98+%, 100g (CHSO22-100).
Tom
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tomholm
Owner of BME Lab and Science and Elemental Scientific
Posts: 181
Registered: 24-2-2014
Location: United States
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good
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Special Orders Due Today
Hi All,
Please remember to get your chemical order in today!
Also, for those still waiting on the aluminum chloride from last month's order - that was scheduled to ship to me on Friday. I will check to see if
that was the case. Hopefully, we'll get all of those orders completed completed this week.
Thx.
Tom
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careysub
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 4-8-2014
Location: Coastal Sage Scrub Biome
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lowest quantum state
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Tom:
A couple of questions (inquiring minds...):
Is the price list of the supplier(s?) you order from on-line?
If so, it would be possible to do preliminary investigation of whether something is available at a plausible price/quantity without bothering you
(acknowledging that your pricing will obviously be higher, and you may have other restrictions that come into play).
Also, since PCl3 cannot be shipped by regular means does this apply to other phosphorus chlorides (PCl5, POCl3) as I imagine it does?
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chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
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Mood: LaGrangian
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"
Upon further review... I think it's safe to say that N-Phenethyl-4-piperidone will not be offered.
Thanks for the good advice."
The nannies strike again! What a wimpy world..
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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tomholm
Owner of BME Lab and Science and Elemental Scientific
Posts: 181
Registered: 24-2-2014
Location: United States
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good
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| Quote: Originally posted by careysub | Tom:
A couple of questions (inquiring minds...):
Is the price list of the supplier(s?) you order from on-line?
If so, it would be possible to do preliminary investigation of whether something is available at a plausible price/quantity without bothering you
(acknowledging that your pricing will obviously be higher, and you may have other restrictions that come into play).
Also, since PCl3 cannot be shipped by regular means does this apply to other phosphorus chlorides (PCl5, POCl3) as I imagine it does?
|
As you might imagine, many/most of these "special order" chemicals are not widely available and are only available from the major chemical companies,
e.g., VWR, Fisher, Sigma, Spectrum. I check these, as well as some of my other suppliers to see what is available and what the cost might be. Some
of these display prices online only if you have an account. While I check multiple sources, in the end, I need to figure in shipping and hazardous
charges into the equation to determine where to purchase from. It typically does not pay to spread the order around to multiple suppliers because of
the shipping and hazardous costs. So often, it boils down to, "Where can I get all of the chemicals for the month's order at a
reasonable cost?" This eliminates some of the flexibility I might otherwise have when ordering larger quantities of chemicals that I'm going to keep
in stock.
I also try to take into account whether the chemical is something that we feel comfortable decanting from larger quantities down to smaller quantities
and how many orders of a certain chemical I expect to get. On top of that, I need to be able to ship the chemical, knowing that freight is not an
option. Unfortunately, it's not always a straight-forward process.
From what I can tell, Phosphorus Trichloride (PCl3) and Phosphoryl chloride (Phosphorus oxychloride, POCl3) cannot be shipped by Fedex or UPS.
However, Phosphorus Pentachloride (PCl5) can be shipped with a Hazardous Shipping charge. Not sure if that makes sense, but that is
the way I see it.
Tom
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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TomHolm,
Do you have an experienced chemist on staff that can advise you about decanting or otherwise subdividing received chemicals to smaller bottles? Or do
you use a consultant for this advice?
The reason I'm asking is that some chemicals may require an inert and/or dry atmosphere so as not to degrade the reagent. An example might be the
subdivision of aluminum trichloride (anhydrous), AlCl3.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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tomholm
Owner of BME Lab and Science and Elemental Scientific
Posts: 181
Registered: 24-2-2014
Location: United States
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | TomHolm,
Do you have an experienced chemist on staff that can advise you about decanting or otherwise subdividing received chemicals to smaller bottles? Or do
you use a consultant for this advice?
The reason I'm asking is that some chemicals may require an inert and/or dry atmosphere so as not to degrade the reagent. An example might be the
subdivision of aluminum trichloride (anhydrous), AlCl3. |
Good Question. This gives me an opportunity to talk about the qualifications of my staff.
My in-house chemist has a chemistry degree and 22 years as the chemistry stockroom manager at a local university.
My sales manager has a BA in Chemistry.
My lead equipment service technician has over 30 years of experience calibrating and repairing lab equipment.
We also have a in-house consultant who has a PhD in agronomy and is a highly recognized process authority for the food and drug industry.
I have a degrees physics, math and law.
So, yes, we do have some expertise and try not to do things that are not safe or would impair the quality of the product. We do our best, but are not
experts in everything or every chemical.
If you have questions concerning any of these areas, don't hesitate to ask. We may be able to help.
Thx.
Tom
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Dan Vizine
National Hazard
Posts: 628
Registered: 4-4-2014
Location: Tonawanda, New York
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Mood: High Resistance
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| Quote: Originally posted by gdflp | | Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys |
If the customers agree to waivers, pay dues, and are accepted into "the society" by application only, the only real risk is if a shipment somehow
breaks open or is inspected, the odds of which during a domestic shipment are basically nothing.
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That's what I thought too. Maybe I just got unlucky, but when I got some used glassware, the package was inspected even though it was domestic in the
US. Three beakers were shattered from being dropped, I assume the inspector did it, because they were extremely padded in the middle of the box.
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I don't know if this will be useful to others or not. When I was making/selling metal X last year, and let's just say, for the sake of argument, that
I thought my potential shipping method was safe, foolproof even, I may have spoken to a friend at UPS to assess the risks. He probably would have said
that UPS (Fedex, too) requires a court order to inspect (even if only by X-rays) your boxes' contents if it presents no red flags, like it's leaking
liquid, attracting paper clips or setting off radiation detectors. No such restriction exists for the USPS, who can inspect as they see fit.
I like UPS and give them all my business.
A hypothetical shipping method:
Why it seems safe: If whatever hell it would take to rupture the container is already going on, nobody will even notice the insignificant "poof" the
ampoule can make. When the shipping container can take anything that its contents or the world throws at it, is there really a risk?
[Edited on 2-10-2014 by Dan Vizine]
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Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1347
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
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| Quote: Originally posted by Dan Vizine | | Quote: Originally posted by gdflp | | Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys |
If the customers agree to waivers, pay dues, and are accepted into "the society" by application only, the only real risk is if a shipment somehow
breaks open or is inspected, the odds of which during a domestic shipment are basically nothing.
|
That's what I thought too. Maybe I just got unlucky, but when I got some used glassware, the package was inspected even though it was domestic in the
US. Three beakers were shattered from being dropped, I assume the inspector did it, because they were extremely padded in the middle of the box.
|
I don't know if this will be useful to others or not. When I was making/selling metal X last year, and let's just say, for the sake of argument, that
I thought my potential shipping method was safe, foolproof even, I may have spoken to a friend at UPS to assess the risks. He probably would have said
that UPS (Fedex, too) requires a court order to inspect (even if only by X-rays) your boxes' contents if it presents no red flags, like it's leaking
liquid, attracting paper clips or setting off radiation detectors. No such restriction exists for the USPS, who can inspect as they see fit.
I like UPS and give them all my business.
A hypothetical shipping method:
Why it seems safe: If whatever hell it would take to rupture the container is already going on, nobody will even notice the insignificant "poof" the
ampoule can make. When the shipping container can take anything that its contents or the world throws at it, is there really a risk?
[Edited on 2-10-2014 by Dan Vizine] |
If I received something like that in the mail, I would be afraid to open it.
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Praxichys
International Hazard
Posts: 1063
Registered: 31-7-2013
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Coprecipitated
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More depressing news:
In my area, The Home Depot has discontinued the 31.45% HCl for some "Klean-Strip Muriatic acid" which claims to have "90% lower fumes than standard
muriatic acid." The MSDS gives an ambiguous <25% HCl. I'm guessing it's probably azeotropic ~20%. It's also $1.50 more expensive for the gallon!
Luckily, ACE hardware still has the gallons of 31.45% for $5.99. I also happened upon 5lbs of potassium permanganate at ACE for $36, another product
Home Depot discontinued in my area. Also, Home Depot no longer sells any ammonia that doesn't have soap, but ACE sells 10% aqueous, no adulterants.
This is in addition to their recent cut on toluene, MEK, and nitrate stump removers, all of which ACE still stocks. Seriously, Home Depot sucks. I
doubt I'll go there anymore.
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