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Author: Subject: Another nail in the coffin of home chemistry (UK)
nezza
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 11:48
Another nail in the coffin of home chemistry (UK)


It looks like our Government is implementing another EU directive to limit our freedom.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosi...

Being an amateur chemist - It was nice while it lasted.

Nitric acid 3% WTF.
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The Volatile Chemist
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 11:51


Quote: Originally posted by nezza  
It looks like our Government is implementing another EU directive to limit our freedom.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosi...

Being an amateur chemist - It was nice while it lasted.

Nitric acid 3% WTF.

That's absolutely horrible! Is this just in the UK, or more of europe?
Is nothing to be done? :/ sheesh, this aught to be petitioned against.




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Pyro
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 13:31


guys, stock up while you can!
I intend to be the hell out of this country by late 2016 (emigrating).

Europe is becoming reminiscent of 1930! wake up! do something!




all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. :D
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HgDinis25
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 14:23


I'm in Europe and I can get 60% Nitric Acid in the nearest drug store at the price of 2 euro. Sulfuric Acid 98% at the price of 3 euro. And many other chemicals that are restricted in other countries. There's still hope in Europe, I just hope the idiots in the UK don't press the rest of the EU to star implementing restrictions like those.
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aga
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 14:30


"must report suspicious transactions and significant losses and thefts."

So they expect the Sellers to claim it was all stolen ;)

Oh well, it really just means clamping down on the people buying precursors cos they cannot Make it themselves.

Time to get the older books out, and start (re)learning how to make the basics again.

For chemists, especially long-timers, it should be an annoyance rather than a reason to quit chemistry.

You never know : it might generate a whole world of new interest.




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aga
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 14:37


Quote: Originally posted by Pyro  
Europe is becoming reminiscent of 1930! wake up! do something!

Europe is just collapsing is all.

It was a crap idea to begin with : the Reactions would never work !

Wars there will be/already are, but it's a somewhat different global environment now.

You'll not live forever no matter what you do, so Chem Onwards.




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Pyro
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 14:39


that's why we are leaving...





all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. :D
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HgDinis25
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 14:53


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
"must report suspicious transactions and significant losses and thefts."

So they expect the Sellers to claim it was all stolen ;)

Oh well, it really just means clamping down on the people buying precursors cos they cannot Make it themselves.

Time to get the older books out, and start (re)learning how to make the basics again.

For chemists, especially long-timers, it should be an annoyance rather than a reason to quit chemistry.

You never know : it might generate a whole world of new interest.


This isn't a simple annoyance. These types of law are responsible (not alone) for the dumb view people have on chemistry. Also, if you are in the UK and have 4% Nitric Acid in your lab, you're breaking the law. Sic...
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WGTR
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 15:36


Unless I am mistaken, there is a thread here talking about this very topic:

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=23...

As much of an inconvenience that it is, I don't see this legislation as a serious problem for home chemistry. It sounds like a license needs to be obtained to purchase/possess certain concentrations of certain chemicals, and that records are kept linking certain types of purchases to a specific individual.

If no licensing is required for purchase, then the government cannot monitor who is buying these chemicals. Anyone with cash can walk in and buy as much as they want. That includes not only a hobby chemist, but also someone who wants to blow up a shopping mall or a school. Whether the licensing is effective to limit these problems, I can't say for sure.

It sounds to me like the licensing is partly a vetting process, as well as a means of tracking who is buying what, and how much. Whatever licensing fees are involved are needed to fund the departments that handle the vetting and tracking processes.

Overall, it sounds like licensing is a small effort in an attempt to combat terrorism. It's not a ban on any particular chemical, nor is it a vast conspiracy to dumb down and frustrate the population. At least that is my unprofessional opinion.

For anyone affected by this, I would suggest going legit and getting licensed. That way if your neighbor reports you for "mixing strange chemicals in your garage", law enforcement can see that you are licensed, and probably won't worry about you.

Unfortunately, the whole world is generally moving in this direction. It's going to be harder to buy certain things no matter what country you live in or move to. If it's not a problem in your country yet, wait about 10-20 years and report back again. It's certainly not going to get easier. With the explosion (no pun intended) of information available on the internet, pretty much anyone can BYOB (build your own bomb) with stuff they find in their local hardware store. To combat this you either regulate knowledge, materials access, or the physical access of malcontents to high value targets.

Out of the three, the last two are probably the easiest to implement. You can't go to Home Depot and anonymously purchase a truckload of ammonium nitrate anymore. The high school I graduated from had a couple of dozen buildings and an open campus. A few years ago it was bulldozed and replaced with a single large building, with single-point controlled access. You can't walk through airport security to the gate unless you have a ticket now. Federal buildings now have large cement pylons around them to prevent people from driving trucks up next to the building. You get the idea.

When it comes to hobby chemistry, you have to pick your battles. If you want to change things, then do it at the ballot box. I would encourage anyone not to "stick their finger in the eye of the man", and do things underground. It's risky, and not productive. If your storage techniques, record-keeping, and lab practices can stand up to the scrutiny of your local authorities, then you'll be well on your way to a hobby that will benefit you in the workplace later.

Of course, all of the above is my own opinion, is probably all wrong, and should be validated with the services of a competent professional; bla, bla, bla.
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[*] posted on 29-8-2014 at 16:21


The license will either A) be too expensive B) be too hard to obtain. Otherwise, what's really the point. Yeah, I get it, record who's buying what. However, if everyone that needs to use those products obtain the licence, lists will be incredible large. Imagine that there's an IED explosion with TATP. Then, they go to those "lists" and check who bought Acetone. There's probably hundreds of names in there. Dead end.

If the license is too expensive, then how are chemistry hobbists suposed to get it? Besides, licence will probably be 18 year old restricted, meaning that hobbists in their teens won't be able to obtain it. And to the other portion, I don't think they're swimming on time and money to go and get it.

The license may also be very hard to obtain. Like 3 months waiting period, paperwork bullshit, backgrounds check, etc etc. A year will go by before you get your license.

And worst of all: these licenses will pose as self incriminatory paper trails. For instance, let's imagine that you get involved in a bombing investigation. You're completly innocent but you were seen on the site with an oddly shapped backpack. If you have a permit to buy Ammonium Nitrate and ANFO was used in the bombing, you are burned. They won't get off your back, afterall why would you need the NH4NO3? Even if you try to explain a legemit use for it, you probably won't stand a chance.
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aga
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[*] posted on 30-8-2014 at 13:11


Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25  
if you are in the UK and have 4% Nitric Acid in your lab, you're breaking the law. Sic...

Is that true ?

So if anyone distills some really good Nitric is already an evil Lawbreaking terrorist ?




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[*] posted on 30-8-2014 at 13:41


Calm the fuck down and get your facts straight:

1) The directive is yet to come into force (planned for 2015 IIRC)

2) Yes, it will apply to the whole EEA (EU + Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein).




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HgDinis25
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[*] posted on 30-8-2014 at 13:45


Quote: Originally posted by Lambda-Eyde  
Calm the fuck down and get your facts straight:

1) The directive is yet to come into force (planned for 2015 IIRC)

2) Yes, it will apply to the whole EEA (EU + Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein).


No, it will not apply to all the European Union. And you must have a license to buy any of those itens after 2 September 2014. Last I checked, that date is 3 days away...
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veganalchemist
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[*] posted on 31-8-2014 at 04:05


The regulations are here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1942/pdfs/uksi_20141...

Also, how to apply for a license:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/licensing-for-hom...

Only £39.50

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/hazardous-sites-an...

Check out the section, Documents for Home Users.


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Lambda-Eyde
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[*] posted on 31-8-2014 at 08:13


Quote: Originally posted by HgDinis25  
No, it will not apply to all the European Union. And you must have a license to buy any of those itens after 2 September 2014. Last I checked, that date is 3 days away...

Well, this is embarassing. I didn't bother to read it properly because I was absolutely sure this was the same as the EU directive that also regulates (among other things) sale of >3% nitric acid which is to come into force sometime in 2015 (the date may be specific to Norway). I don't have any sources for that except in Norwegian, sorry. It looks like the UK is one step ahead.




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[*] posted on 31-8-2014 at 12:19


Just to summarize:

From September 2, 2014 the sale of the following chemicals to members of the general public is prohibited in the EU and a few other nearby countries (don't remember exactly which ones):
- HNO3 concentration > 3%
- H2O2 concentration > 12%
- CH3NO2 concentration > 30%
- chlorates concentration > 40%
- perchlorates concentration > 40%
Countries are allowed to introduce a licensing system for the first three chemicals and the cost of obtaining a license must be reasonable (this is done in the UK, see above). Not all countries will do so, e.g. in the Netherlands there will be no licensing system, so over here there are no exceptions and no one is supposed to buy e.g. > 3% HNO3. Countries are allowed to introduce a licensing system, but if a government thinks this is too much hassle, then they can simply ban these chemicals for everyone.

From March 3, 2016 the making, possession and use of these chemicals is not allowed anymore. Indeed, after this date, making your own chlorate cell and making some KClO3 is not allowed anymore. Possession of e.g. KClO3 will be a crime. Up to the date of March 3, 2016 the possession and use still is allowed to allow people to use up their stocks. After that date, you should bring these chemicals to a municipal waste processing facility in order to have them destroyed/disposed off properly.

The second part (March 2016) of these regulations worries me much more than the first part. These reagents I can make myself (only the nitromethane will be a real challenge) in small quantities (100 ml, 250 grams, that kinds of quantities, which are good enough for my purposes of experimenting), but that is not allowed! Making them will be a crime!




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HgDinis25
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[*] posted on 1-9-2014 at 18:06


That's true woelen. However I think it's not going to stop there. Like Lambda-Eyde stated, there's also a UE directive to license such chemicals and a few others. That's an open door for a future lesgilation, perhaps already integrated in the UE diretive, that will make illegal the use of such chemicals for purposes other than those stipulated by law. For instance, you may be allowed to buy KNO3 stump remover but you can't use it for chemistry related purposes.
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Antiswat
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[*] posted on 2-9-2014 at 06:33


excuse me i think you guys mean DYSROPE which is the more correct semantic version of ''europe''

but as another user on this very forum once stated, they will need to ban salt, water and electricity before they can completele wipe out any ''terrorist act''
let alone somehow make it impossible to get nitrogen and hydrogen, or urea???

just wonder if we could get some deal running with selling NM and KClO3 and what not below 30 and 40% with simple sand.. rofl. i mean wouldnt that be possible?????
sand would be quite inert and not count it in as a pyrotechnical composition


anyhow nitric acid can be concentrated using anhydrous salts, perhaps even boiling it and collecting vapors or discarding them?
H2O2 can be boiled down to high concentration especially with an inverted computer fan ontop of the beaker

the question of WHY they would ban such chemicals is a question i will probably never get to find an answer on myself, having thought i knew before




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 2-9-2014 at 06:40


Well, our hobby is already kinda dodgy, and I doubt that else then changing country each time there is new regulation, there is way to be on the legit side of things. I mean, I don't think that in any foreseeable future Laws will slack, as such I believe the best way to do it is to continue your experiments quietly and safely, without being noisy about it.

So, EM in larger then lets say 5g quantity (which is already kinda large) would be a total no-no, but making 20 ml of nitromethane in your home lab would get totally unnoticed.
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[*] posted on 2-9-2014 at 08:14


I don't see how banning these OTC chemicals is going to stop a determined terrorist. He just has to learn some chemistry - are they going to ban that too?



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WGTR
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[*] posted on 2-9-2014 at 09:29


I think that synthesizing explosive precursors seems straightforward to someone who knows the chemistry behind it. I mean, hey, anyone can build a Birkeland-Eyde reactor, right? And then they can reduce part of the nitric acid to ammonia on a copper cathode, and make ammonium nitrate. It only takes air, water, electricity, and maybe a few hundred bucks.

The reality of it is this. There's a sliding scale of materials availability vs. the likelihood that someone can carry out a terror attack using those materials. There's also a sliding scale of materials availability vs. inconvenience to the general population. Things get reprioritized and pushed around until some sort of legislation results, hopefully delivering the intended results.

The concern is not necessarily a qualitative one, but also quantitative. Sure, you can get ammonium nitrate from CVS, but how big of a bomb can you build out of cold packs? It's not so simple as just buying a truck load of 50 lb. bags at Home Depot. You can get chlorates by boiling down bleach, but how many tons of bleach do you want to work with? The harder you make something, the less likely it is to happen. Both chlorates and ammonium nitrate are legal in my own country, but it's just an example.

The people that they are trying to stop are those who go buy a bag of this, a bag of that, a gallon of that, and mix it all together with a long stick (or something). Many of them don't even go through the effort of building a proper initiation device; they just steal them from somewhere, or repurpose old munitions. Somewhere along the line, someone decided that perchlorates in <40% concentration where fairly ineffective when used in bulk explosives, but it would still allow the population to use it for gardening or whatever. That's probably where those limits came from.
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[*] posted on 2-9-2014 at 10:02


Those are quite onerous rules. And while I agree that the quantitative issue is the main one, that is not what the rules are saying. I would think that quantities under say 100 g of any of those would be harmless to possess. Even in the US, you are allowed to buy 1lb of perchlorates without a license.

If the rules are not clear, then I could see selling some of those with an inert filler, but I am sure that they will clarify that eventually, once they realize that sand could be removed easily.

PS, perchorates are not used for gardening, but nitrates could be. If you are going to make comments on a science forum, please at least get your science correct. :-)
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[*] posted on 2-9-2014 at 10:04


Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I don't see how banning these OTC chemicals is going to stop a determined terrorist. He just has to learn some chemistry - are they going to ban that too?

Indeed that is true.

Quote: Originally posted by WGTR  

The concern is not necessarily a qualitative one, but also quantitative. Sure, you can get ammonium nitrate from CVS, but how big of a bomb can you build out of cold packs?

That is true as well.

But making a powerful terrorist bomb is simple. With propane tanks and even draining the gasoline from a car one can simply make a powerful bomb. None of these chemicals is needed. So, actually authorities should ban propane or gasoline ?
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[*] posted on 2-9-2014 at 10:20


Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob  

PS, perchorates are not used for gardening, but nitrates could be. If you are going to make comments on a science forum, please at least get your science correct. :-)


Sorry. Looking at the post again, I should have said "chlorates". Sodium chlorate is used commonly as a grass killer, before you plant for the season.
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[*] posted on 2-9-2014 at 12:43


Hahaha.

From the UK FAQ:

"Business to business transactions are outside of licensing requirements"

I'm a Business.

Not sold anything yet, as this Business (me) is in the Startup R&D phase, and i'm working on the Product that this Business will sell.

Once i discover, then make the Product, the Business will then move to the Sell Stuff phase.

Sorted.




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