| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5 |
497
National Hazard
Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: HSbF6
|
|
The old french reference talks about getting over 20g R-salt from 28g hexamine using H2SO4 and NaNO2. Did they screw up or did the recent attempts at
synthesizing it screw up?
Pretty much they say to dissolve 28g hexamine in about 400ml H2O, add 45g H2SO4 (about 100ml battery acid). Then immediately begin adding a solution
of 70g NaNO2 in about 250ml H2O while keeping the temperature below 10*C and stirring, over 5 minutes. Continue stirring for another 10 minutes, then
filter the precipitate. Wash the the precipitate with water. Dry at room temperature to get crude R-salt. They say the R-salt is pretty stable
dissolved in hot 25% acetic acid, while the dinitrosated byproduct decomposes rapidly. Also recrystallization from methanol or acetone increases
stability of R-salt. 33.4g R-salt dissolves in 100ml acetone at 15*C.
Pure R-salt melts at 105*C, 5-55% dinitroso impurity melts between 105*C and 100*C. Over 60% dinitroso impurity melts above 110*C.
Can anyone confirm this literature?
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
The PATR mentions somethings about this. The original patent is Swedish I believe and I have no access to either the language or their patent site.
Acetone appears to be "too effective" of a solvent (255% !!! when @50-60C) and it's presented to achieve a better result using methyl alcohol.
-{Similar to the ETN solubility issue}-
Quoting:
Melting point on rapid heating was 110°C, close enough to documented temp of 106-7°C. The other possible product (dinitrosopentamethylenetetramine)
melts at 207°C so easy to tell apart.
Optimized prep in Fedoroff:
Bachmann & Deno (Ref 6 in the PATR) added simultaneously a solution of NaNO2 in 6M HCl, at a rate required to maintain a pH of 1, to a solution of
hexamethylenetetramine in ice & water. The mixture was held at 0° for 30 minutes. The yield of practically pure product was 50% (mole for mole
basis).
Another issue is the foam & pH; temp of the synth must be substantially controlled as when one approaches 20C you'll end up w/ DNTP. (this appears
to be a stumbling block on occasion - temp has to be ridged at or BELOW 10). dry ice & acetone IS overboard but a small amount of dry ice &
glycol will last long enough to keep you from ever going past 10C
Some have insisted that it is "RDX but missing three oxygen atoms" one from each NO2 group. However PATR reference (Bachmann?) insists this is not
the case and sensitivity is quite different. Was presented as a carcinogen; recently OSHA (in Apache Powder Co.) found RDX to be "high risk" for what
that's worth.
Failures in synthesis also appear due to use of solid alkali nitrates instead of HNO3; apparently the acid must be used for a success. The nitrite
method does appear to be appropriate from what I could find. Experiment notes show that 0C (rather than 10) have a favorable effect on diminishing
foam. The foam is almost a "red flag" that the temp is too high. Also, by not "mixing the up the nitrous acid first, there is a lot more foaming and
heat" (this appears significant as it appears in several labs).
I can only confirm from my notes, the PATR and past posts. The best source (IMO) is to get the original Swedish patent(s).
I have some notes here but I can't find the Pat number. However I think one date was 1938.
[Edited on 23-9-2011 by quicksilver]
|
|
|
497
National Hazard
Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: HSbF6
|
|
Here is the paper I was talking about.
Attachment: TMTN synth.pdf (87kB)
This file has been downloaded 1384 times
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
oxidizing nitrosamines to nitramines
Here is another route that could potentially be used to selectively oxidize R-salt to RDX,
| Quote: |
A modified electrode comprising a film of mixed-valent ruthenium oxides with cyano cross-links on glassy carbon mediates the oxidation of
N-nitrosamines. The oxidations are two-electron processes. Using N-nitrosodi-n-propylamine as a model compound, the mechanism of the oxidation was
shown to involve a coupled protonation of the oxidized form of the mediating film. Bulk-scale controlled-potential electrolysis of N-nitrosamines
yielded the corresponding N-nitramine; gas chromatography—mass spectrometry did not show any evidence of side
reactions.
"Oxidation of N-nitrosamines at a ruthenium-based modified electrode in aqueous solutions", Waldemar Gorski, James A. Cox, Journal
Electroanalytical Chemistry (1995)
|
| Quote: |
CTMTNA, also called R-Salt, is similar to RDX. The difference is that it has NO groups insteads of NO2 groups- making it a nitrosamine. Nitrosamines
are known carcinogens so it has that drawback. Toxicity aside, CTMTNA is quite a powerful explosive with a VoD of 7800 m/s at 1.57 g/cm3, relative
briscancy of 1.17, and a lead block expansion of 370 cm3. It can form a low melting eutectic with RDX at a 50:50 ratio. It can also be converted into
RDX using xNO3/H2SO4. One other drawback of the explosive is that the yield is low, 50% being a good yield.
One other point about this explosive is that two forms can be produced - the dintroso product and the trinitroso product. The aim here is to produce
the trinitroso form. This is accomplished by performing the reaction at a pH of 1. A higher pH will result in formation of the dinitroso product.
The required materials are HCl, hexamine, and a nitrite. The literature refers to NaNO2 use, but I used KNO2 because that is what I have. The ratio I
use is 1:6:4.3 of hexamine to HCl to KNO2 as this seems to provide a good yield.
For this synthesis 7 grams of hexamine in 50 ml water, 30 ml of 31.45% HCl in 50 ml water, and 18 grams of KNO2 in 30 ml water were used. The HCl
solution and KNO2 solution were mixed to form a blue solution of nitrous acid.
The solutions were cooled down to < 0C and the nitrous acid was added to the hexamine solution. At first nothing happened but then after a short
while the mixture began to foam up, almost over the top of the reaction vessel. The foam went down as gas escaped and about 20 minutes later it was
filtered.
The product was then dried and weighed. The yield is shown here and is just above 50% of theoretical. That works out to 4.4 grams for 7 grams hexamine
used.
|
[Edited on 23-1-2012 by AndersHoveland]
|
|
|
Boffis
International Hazard
Posts: 1836
Registered: 1-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
C.T.M.T.N.A. attempts
Following the purification of crude hexamine by recrystallization from 30% water and 70% isopropanol and the recovery of the isopropanol by gentle
vacuum distillation (to avoid possible decomposition of the remaining hexamine) a small volume of saturated aqueous hexamine solution containing a
little isopropanol remained. Rather than discard it I decided to try the preparation of trimethylene trinitrosamine by reacting it with sodium nitrite
and sulphuric acid as discussed earlier in this thread.
In order to determine the concentration of hexamine in the residual solution one gram of the saturated hexamine solution was accurately weighed out
onto a watch glass and evaporated to dryness on a water bath. The loss of weight gave 0.785g of hexamine. So 35.85g of the hexamine solution (approx.
0.2 moles) were weighed out and diluted to 200ml with de-ionised water. Next 150ml of 4M sulphuric acid (recovered from dehydration of guanidine
nitrate experiment and standardised to this strength) were diluted to 400ml. Both solutions were placed in the freezer to cool while a solution of 69g
(1 mole) of sodium nitrite was dissolved in 200ml of water; this solution does not need cooling since it is self cooling.
When the hexamine solution and the sulphuric acid had reached about -5°C they were mixed together in a 2L beaker and the addition of the sodium
nitrite commenced at such a rate that all of the nitrite should have been added within 10-15 minutes. Vigorous, preferably mechanical, stirring is
required as the mixture froths badly as the pale yellow product separates out Fig.2. After the addition of about three quarters of the sodium nitrite
the solution had become difficult to stir and so was filter at the pump. The cake was left on the filter and the remaining sodium nitrite add to the
filtrate but no further precipitate formed. It appears that only about 0.75-0.8moles of sodium nitrite are required. By the end the solution had
warmed up to about 40°C.
The filter cake was washed with 100ml of water and sucked dry. It was dried at 40°C for about 10 hours to give 11.52g of pale yellow fine grained
curd like solid (33.1% yield) Fig.2.
A second batch was run using 41.01g of the hexamine solution diluted to 150ml and 0.7moles of sulphuric acid diluted to 300ml. The two solutions were
mixed and cooled to-12°C in the freezer. Only 60g of sodium nitrite in 200ml of water cooled to the same temperature was added with vigorous stirring
fairly quickly. After the addition of about half the sodium nitrite the temperature had risen to +10°C so addition was stopped and the slurry placed
in the freezer for 30 minutes to bring the temperature to below zero again and the addition continued. The yield of curd like pale yellow
trinitrosamine this time was 18.34g after drying or 52.7% yield.
The two crops of product were combined (29.86g) and recrystallized from 300ml of methanol. In theory 180ml is sufficient (COPAE) but in practice it is
not possible to filter the solution fast enough to prevent crystallisation in the filter and increasing the vacuum causes the filtrate to boil and
therefore crystallise in the decreased volume. The recrystallized product takes the form of yellow bladed crystals to 30mm long Fig.3. They were
stirred to break up the larger blades before filtering, filter at the pump, washed with a little cold methanol and sucked as dry as possible and dried
(recovery 23g) Fig.4.
The filtrate was used to recrystallized the product from a third and final preparation and then reduce to half its original volume in a rotary
evaporator and a final small crop of crystals recovered.
Discussion
The frothing is caused by the evolution of nitrogen and formaldehyde may be detected amongst the volatile product by its pungent smell but no brown
nitrogen oxides were observed. The approximate reaction appears to be;
C6H12N4 + 4HNO2 = C3H6N6O3 +3CH2O + N2 + 2H2O
Hexamine + Nitrous acid = trinitrosamine + formaldehyde + nitrogen + water
It will be noticed that the ratio of nitrous acid to hexamine is 4:1 but since formaldehyde can react with nitrous acid the actual ratio may be
higher. It appears from the experiments above that lower temperatures limit the side reactions and reduce the side reactions; however, the yields at
the lower temperature were still only a little over 50%. It may be possible to improve things further by using crush ice from the deep freeze at about
-20°C directly into the reaction mixture to provide more efficient cooling. Reducing the volume of solution and decreasing the nitrite added to
something closer to the ideal 4:1 ratio does not appear to reduce the yield significantly. Temperature seems to be the main factor affecting yield in
acid conditions.
How the hell do you get the pictures where you want them? Anyway the photos are the frothing mixture after adding half the nitrite. Second row left
crude product; right, recrystalling from methanol. Bottom, Final product.
[Edited on 16-2-2012 by Boffis]
 
[Edited on 16-2-2012 by Boffis]
[Edited on 16-2-2012 by Boffis]
[Edited on 16-2-2012 by Boffis]
[Edited on 16-2-2012 by Boffis]
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
Cute looking crystals! nice post.
You can only put your pics in order when you have all of the "Brows buttons" (sp?) out for the number of pics you have. So if you have 4: start by
making 4 brows buttons in a Post Reply response, number the pics and place them in order you want. The reason I say number them is that I THINK that
the sideways displays might occur from a naming convention in the software.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Axt  | | Quote: | Originally posted by Rosco Bodine <a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3033">here</a>
Also hexamine or hexamine dinitrate or even HMTD could form R-salt or a similar derivative . (from NOx) |
I'd previously tried to get R-salt by bubbling N2O3 through 20g hexamine, 100ml 32% HCl and 150ml water, cooled to 5°C. A precipitate did seem to
form (solution turned white/turbid) but temperature gets out of control and solution fumed off as you get if r-salt is added to hot acid (its not
stable in acid solution, far worse if its hot). If one was going to attempt this you will need to use a slurry of crushed ice, external cooling wont
work.
Anyway, heres conventional r-salt through NaNO2/HCl/hexamine. Three solutions were made, one containing 60g 35% HCl in 100ml water, one containing 40g
NaNO2 in 80ml water and one containing 20g hexamine and 60g HCl in 100ml water. The NaNO2/HCl solutions are combined, producing blue solution of
nitrous acid. This is then added to the hexamine/HCl <0°C. The foam filtered off, dried. Yield was just over 50% right on the documented yield.
Melting point on rapid heating was 110°C, close enough to documented temp of 106-7°C. The other possible product (dinitrosopentamethylenetetramine)
melts at 207°C so easy to tell apart.
By not mixing the up the nitrous acid first, theres a lot more foaming and heating and often I end up with nothing at all.
R-salt burns easily with soft orange flame leaving residue, with noise but not as vigourously as RDX. Ive never tried to detonate it.
<center><img src="http://www.sciencemadness.org/scipics/axt/rsalts.jpg"></center>
^ I dont think all of the pics above are from the same batch. |
I just got some nitrite and I tried this. First attempt-I added the HCl solution to the nitrite slowly for about two hours at temp near 0 degree. The
NO2 was quite a lot but for 40g nitrite I guess it wasn't big loss. Then cooled it and added cooled hexamine/HCl. I got little foam and let it over
night. The other day I could recover barely a gram. I didn't burn well and was leaving carbon residue.
Second attempt-the HCl and the nitrite was cooled to atleast -5 or -10. Still NO2. Cooled again and added the hexamine solution(also like -5). Very
little foam that disappeared within like half and hour. Is there a noob proof way, with these yields even RDX seems somewhat cheap 
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
It has been six years, (link) http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3033&a... since I really thought about even in passing but had wondered if there may be a
reaction between R-salt dissolved in methanol and trimeric acetone peroxide. Seeing the pictures by Boffis of the R-salt in methanol ....hmmmm I was
thinking about this again, wondering if maybe a peripheral experiment could be done to see if a transnitrosation reaction or other reaction occurs
between AP and R-salt. It would be good to know of any potential compatability / reactivity issues.
|
|
|
Adas
National Hazard
Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction
|
|
Reaction between TATP and R-Salt? Wow... You must consider that TATP is pretty chemically stable. I don't think any reaction will occur at all.
Rest In Pieces!
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
Do you know?
|
|
|
Adas
National Hazard
Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction
|
|
I don't know, I am just wondering.
Rest In Pieces!
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
Then that's two of us. Hey Boffis, while you're in the neighborhood MEKP is
another potential transnitrosation
possibility.
[Edited on 18-2-2012 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
Farnsworth
Harmless
Posts: 37
Registered: 11-5-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I apologize for the thread necromancy, but I have a relevant question.
According to
ENGINEERING DESIGN
HANDBOOK
EXPLOSIVES SERIES
PROPERTIES OF EXPLOSIVES
OF MILITARY INTEREST
R-Salts has a negative oxygen balance of 55%. Could it be combined with TNT in a manner similar to Comp. B, but adding AN to balance it better?
Barring any unpleasant reactions it sounds like R-Salts could be used to greatly boost the effective power of an AN-heavy Amatol composition in
something like a 50-30-20 composition of AN, TNT, and R-Salts respectively.
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I wrote about unsuspected reactions at this forum. Never mix R-salt with AN!!! Trace amounts of nitric acid, presenting in AN will react with R-salt.
Violence reaction began after some days since I made mixture of R-salt and AN. I thought about negative oxygen balance too. But at the first I
noticed, that aforementioned mixture burns very fast, compared with another mixtures of AN with reducing agents. I did not suspect that something is
wrong with that mixture and leaved 50-60 gr to stay at room temperature. As I said, violence reaction suddenly began. There was no flame, but clouds
of gray smoke. Process continued no more than 1-2 seconds. Plastic vessel, where that mix was stored, had been melted. Fortunately, I was alone at my
home and had enough time to remove all results of this incident before my parents went back to home.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
Farnsworth
Harmless
Posts: 37
Registered: 11-5-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Interesting.... And this is why we ask questions before we go mixing chemicals together! 
May I ask if there is any known negative reaction with straight TNT (assuming the TNT has been very carefully washed and neutralized to eliminate that
nitric acid residue)?
What I'm getting at is I wonder if R-Salts could replace RDX in a Comp. B type explosive. It would certainly be interesting if it can.
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I do not know. Most likely, neutral compound like TNT will not react with R-salt at all. But I rather doubt, if such mix will have any valuable
property.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
From where do you plan getting TNT? You can surely make some mixed isomers of some nitroaromatics, it may be detonatable, but how do you plan
separating isomers, lower nitration products? I made attempt to make TNT and I got something witch really looked like it. I mixed it with ETN and it
still didn't go off with azide+etn/egdn. Also how is it possible to get decent yields of ctmtna? To me it's more expensive then RDX.
|
|
|
Motherload
Hazard to Others
Posts: 245
Registered: 12-8-2012
Location: Sewer
Member Is Offline
Mood: Shitty
|
|
It may seem more expensive but ... The OTCness of it is almost universal.
R-Salt
Hexamine - Cheap
NaNO2 - Cheap
HCl - Cheap
RDX
Hexamine - Cheap
WFNA - almost impossible to buy or stupid expensive or make your own.
Your still at about 60% yield
Add NH4NO3 (questionable availability) and AcAn (Forbidin) then you may get up to 80% yield.
R-Salt is pretty awesome. And the carcinogenicity .... I don't generally eat and snort my explosives and the usual gear ... Gloves, mask and glasses
will protect me from the rest.
"Chance favours the prepared mind"
"Fuck It !! We'll do it live !!"
|
|
|
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Motherload | It may seem more expensive but ... The OTCness of it is almost universal.
R-Salt
Hexamine - Cheap
NaNO2 - Cheap
HCl - Cheap
RDX
Hexamine - Cheap
WFNA - almost impossible to buy or stupid expensive or make your own.
Your still at about 60% yield
Add NH4NO3 (questionable availability) and AcAn (Forbidin) then you may get up to 80% yield.
|
yeah, that it 
is there any good syn for making RDX from R-Salt?
I've read some syn making RDX with AN/H2SO4...BUT...RDX and H2SO4? the fuck?
Better for me would be a straight nitration with HOKO-YFNA...does that work?
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
RDX is so straight forward. H2SO4+nitrate salt. Distil that and nitrate your HDN. I did it with aluminium tube. The product RDX was great, yield as
good as with my commercial WFNA.
I did several ctmtna attempts and my biggest batch of more then litre gave me less then two grams. However distilled water and recrystalizastion
solvent are still the same price.
Can you post the synth. witch gives you decent yields?
|
|
|
Boffis
International Hazard
Posts: 1836
Registered: 1-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
@Ral123
Read my post above; it contains details of several attempts. I can routinely get 50% yields. Just follow the details carefully!
...and you too can get 50% yields.
|
|
|
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.
|
|
hi
i have s short question about the syn of R-Salt/RDX
when nitration hexamine straight to rdx or if you make R-salt there are much Syn where there is more hexamine used than the final RDX/R-Salt is in
wheight
im no chemical pro (obvisiously^^) but...if you nitrate some stuff (in this case hexamine) the ONO2/NO2 (are bound at the hexamine) so if you know
that you have a Syn where you will get under good conditions 50g final produkt RDX, the WHY mixing, lets say 60 g in it...is seems (for me) just to
delute the reaktion...letzs say 40g Hexamine will get full nitrated and the other stuff only to Di-Nitrate (shit) so why dont use just 45-50g Haxamine
and get a fullnitration at the whole stuff and get 55g-60g final produkt...
does anyone knwo why?
|
|
|
Motherload
Hazard to Others
Posts: 245
Registered: 12-8-2012
Location: Sewer
Member Is Offline
Mood: Shitty
|
|
It's because nitrolysis of Hexamine to RDX isn't the only reaction taking place.
There are other side reactions occuring that use up reactants.
"Chance favours the prepared mind"
"Fuck It !! We'll do it live !!"
|
|
|
Farnsworth
Harmless
Posts: 37
Registered: 11-5-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
So what would be the most useful means of binding R-salts in a useful form?
I'd make an educated guess at something like combining it with 5-10PBW of paraffin wax and pressing it into a small pellet?
With the acid reactivity issue and poor oxygen balance, it would seem the actual applications for the material would be somewhat limited.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I think you plasticise it with inerts, you would need like a half a kilo for reliable initiation by a booster. Someone have any idea of it's
sensitivity?
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
