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Edward Elric
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Handling Nitrogen Triiodide NI3
I understand that some of you may be reluctant in answer this question for me, but how do i handle NI3 after I make it?
I was reading about some low explosives I could make once I obtained Iodine. NI3 seemed to be an interesting one I could make.
I read that if have OTC ammonia from the cleaning aisle and use that when making it, the compound won't be so readily explosive. Meaning scraping
it off won't really set it off, but slamming it on the ground would.
If I had used lab ammonia, this stuff would be a lot more fragile. I'm not going to use lab ammonia.
I don't know about the accuracy of that information though.
Is it possible for me to scrape NI3 off of a filter into a jar?
Maybe I should have posted this in energetic materials. Whoops sry.
[Edited on 15-5-2005 by Edward Elric]
☣ - Full Metal Alchemist - ☣
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kyanite
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Please, for your own safety, stop reading "cook-books". All they're good for is a laugh. If you want to learn from a book, pick up an
university/colledge(even high-school) text-book. Unlike crapbooks, the information comes from reputable sources.
Also a few things.
Search.
Google-ing. There are videos etc out there showing that a feather can set it off. I think its safe to say people shouldn't even be near it when
it's in solution, and so no doubt it will go off if the filter paper is MOVED(so forget about scraping).
So in conclusion: Cook-book = bad, funded research = good, fingers = definatly good, and Im sure someone could do a better job at flaming but when
they do, remember, they do it out of love.
Stay safe.
Edit: Oh yeah, and NI3 is definatly not a low-explosive Its high-order!
[Edited on 15-5-2005 by kyanite]
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Marvin
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While wet and saturated with ammonia you have some room to manipulate, scrape/move when dry its extremely sensitive. Don't dry on a radiator,
it'll go off.
On the handling.... Dont. Make it where you need it and expect it to go off at any point, wet or dry. Don't try to store or stabilise, keep
away from anything glass, you get the picture?
Make very small amounts and keep your fingers. I'm thinking 'pea' sort of volume split into several portions. At least infections in
cuts isnt a problem, everything gets sterilised (and stained) with the iodine vapour.
I like this stuff, and think its a good introduction to explosives, its relatively weak for a high exposive and too sensitive, unstable and
unpredictable to have practical use.
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Duster
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I remember in high school they showed us a video of this guy who does all sorts of pretty neat things...
One of which was NI3... He had just a bit on a piece of filter paper on a ring stand... Using a wooden stick with a feather taped to it he touched the
NI3 and it went off...
If that doesnt give you an idea of how dangerous this stuff is, I dont know what will... I would rather handle AP than be near NI3.
Duster
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Edward Elric
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kyanite
Also a few things.
Search.
Google-ing. There are videos etc out there showing that a feather can set it off. I think its safe to say people shouldn't even be near it when
it's in solution, and so no doubt it will go off if the filter paper is MOVED(so forget about scraping).
So in conclusion: Cook-book = bad, funded |
I googled it before i started this thread and used wikipedia to search for more info. I saw that video and when I did i wondered what type of ammonia
they used, lab grade or household.
There must be a way to contain this stuff? Argon in a bottle with it? Maybe a gelcap with some silica gel in it?
I'm wondering how this stuff can only be one time use stuff. It's like it's only purpose is for building powdered smoke bomb booby
tramps for people in Vietnam or wartime.
BTW, stop patronizing me. I'm not reading the anarchists cookbook. 
[Edited on 15-5-2005 by Edward Elric]
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Marvin
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"If that doesnt give you an idea of how dangerous this stuff is"
Is shows how sensitive it can be, how dangerous depends on everything else. If the person making it is dangerous or stupid, then it will be
dangerous. Much the same goes for every other explosive.
"I would rather handle AP than be near NI3."
This is why AP kills so many people.
Edit,
"There must be a way to contain this stuff? Argon in a bottle with it? Maybe a gelcap with some silica gel in it? "
No, there is no 'there must be some way' and the thought pattern is defective in this context. Do yourself a favour. Try anyway with
*very* small amounts and soft plastic bottles. This will teach you things you just can't be taught any other way, or from virtually any other
explosive in reasonable time.
[Edited on 15-5-2005 by Marvin]
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Duster
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Im not saying AP is safe, but I would consider it safer than NI3. I suppose I could be wrong as I havent made either, and dont really plan to, but
considering you can press AP into a container... Thats saying a lot more than what you can do with NI3.
Duster
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a_bab
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You either have to read more on the subject, or to make it in SMALL quantities. It'll give you some answers why is a "single use"
explosive.
You can't store it for more than a week because it'll decompose, leaving nasty iodine stains. Once dried, it's just a matter of time
until it will go off by itself, or because of a draft or god knows what. In 24 hours if properly dried it will go off.
Storing it underwater doesn't solve the issue: it will decompose permanently.
Make it and you'll see. Start with a rice grain quantity of iodine and see the results.
1 gram won't kill you but 10 grams will
definately do (especially using a glass container).
I once left about two grams under water in the balcony, and when I got back from work, I saw that the beaker was turned to dust, and a huge ugly spot
on the ceiling. So even underwater it's able to detonate.
[Edited on 15-5-2005 by a_bab]
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Marvin
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Sound advise a_bab.
Duster,
"considering you can press AP into a container... Thats saying a lot more than what you can do with NI3"
In a nutshell, this is exactly my point. NI3.NH3 is honest, AP pretends to be safe/stable and its lying, it can go off by itself or by a small
external stimulus but you won't expect it when it does. Weight for weight AP is much more violent and they both decompose at similar rates.
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Duster
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That is true. I guess thats why its best to know the properties of any chemical or exposive you plan to deal with...
Surprises are generally a bad thing in the world of chemistry I would think...
Duster
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neutrino
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Elric
i wondered what type of ammonia they used, lab grade or household. |
Ammonia is ammonia.
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tom haggen
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And they don't sell ammonia at the hard ware store. They sell ammonium hydroxide. By the way NI3 isn't even that cool of an explosive. I
don't know why newbies are so fascinated with it. NI3 and thermite draws newbies like a bug to a bug light. ZZZZZZZZZZZAP!!!!!! No fingers.
[Edited on 15-5-2005 by tom haggen]
N/A
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hodges
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Actually, NI3 made with weak ammonium hydroxide is supposed to be even more sensitve than NI3 made with concentrated ammonium hydroxide. The extra
NH3 molecules tend to attach to the NI3 molecules in the form (NI3).(NH3)n. The larger n, the more stable. As the substance dries (or if washed with
water for that matter), NH3 is lost, and eventually the NI3 detonates spontaneously. In practice, I've used both concentrated NH4OH and
household "ammonia" and have not noticed much difference, at least if the iodine is fine enough.
You really do need to keep the amounts down. The most I ever made at one time was under 0.5 gram. I started with 0.5 grams of KI and produced iodine
from it. Obviously, not all of the 0.5 grams in KI is iodine, and my yield of iodine was not 100%, especially after several washings. I'm
guessing I ended up with about 0.2 grams of iodine. Yet when I was done with it I concluded I have made too much. It was enough for several loud
bangs and numerous cracks and pops as it dried in my bathtub. And be sure to use a soft disposable plastic cup - not a glass one!
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mick
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NI3 does not exist. NI3 solvated with H2O or NH3 does.
mick
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neutrino
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No, pure NI<sub>3</sub> had been isolated. I think it was made in the gas phase by reaction of ammonia and iodine vapor.
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HNO3
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Pure NI<sub>3</sub> does exist. To quote my 1956 Encyclopedia Britannica, "<i>Nitrogen tri-iodide</i>,
NI<sub>3</sub>, is a black powder obtained by the action of ammonia gas on potassium iodobromide, KIBr<sub>2</sub>, washing
with water and drying (H. W. Cremer and D. R. Duncan, 1930)."
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Marvin
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Greenwood and Earnshaw "Chemistry of the Elements", a very reliable textbook generally states "Pure NI3 has not been isolated, but the
structure of the shock sensitive adduct with NH3 has recently been elucidated". It goes into some detail about the structure.
It also states "The elusive NBr3 was finally prepaired as a deep red, very temperature sensitive , volatile solid by the low temperature
bromination of of bitrimethylsilylbomamine with BrCl." Conditions are -87C in pentane.
(Me3Si)2NBr + 2BrCl => NBr3 + 2MeSiCl.
I hold this book in fairly high regard and it does go into considerable detail for a general university inorganic textbook. I'm inclined to
believe 3 things,
1, that pure NI3 was not produced before 1984 the date of first publication.
2, that it cannot be produced from a mixture containing ammonia.
3, if it has ever been produced it should be even less stable than pure NBr3.
None of my other books contradicts G&E though one with a first publication 20 years earlier states that neither NBr3 or NI3 have been made apart
from as ammonia adducts.
As for making NI3.NH3, I prefer the process of dissolving iodine in a solution of potassium iodide and adding that to ammonia. Saving the filtrate
gets the potassium iodide back as well as the half of the iodine that doesnt go into making NI3.
tom,
Those people, and I havnt seen any reports of it happening recently, that would lose fingers playing with NI3.NH3 are the people that would lose limbs
or lives playing with anything else. Its a good learning experience, a good novelty and a lousey HE in every respect.
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a_bab
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The first time I made NI3.NH3 I used a KI solution of iodine and the resulted crystals are very small (under 0,5 mm) and dark green. Some will even
pop when you swirl the contents of the beaker.
When I made it with pure iodine/ammonia, I suspected that there must be quite alot of unreacted iodine.
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MadHatter
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NI3
Back in high school chemistry, my teacher made a tiny amount in lab. I've never seen an
explosive as friction sensitive as that one !
From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
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Zinc
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A little OT, but do you know what is the VOD of NI3.NH3?
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IrC
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The title of this thread is what we call an oxymoron. A fly could not handle this chemical without it exploding and neither will anyone else.
Back in 1967 I took a 1000 ml beaker and filled it nearly full with all the ingredients, and proceeded to boil above a burner. After a while the
beaker exploded while I was stirring it, clearing off a thousand dollars of equipment in 1960's dollars, leaving the bench wiped clean and me soaking
wet. I had to slowly dry out the rest of the day as I went to my various classes, creating mayhem in each class as every few minutes my clothes would
explode here and there leaving purple stains all over me. About 7 hours later as I walked home from school I was still exploding every so often. The
next day my mom freaked when she tried washing my clothes and they started popping again (needless to say I had not told her of my leveling the
classroom bench). The next day in school there was the typical hell to pay from the admin people. Lucky me, I was the teachers genius pet and he lied
and covered my ass big time.
He told them it was an old bottle of potassium which had "gone bad" innocently sitting on the bench which had exploded and that it was all their fault
for not clearing out old chemicals in a timely fashion. I still think to this day the principle knew he was being bullshitted as he always kept his
eye on me after that but he could not prove it so I escaped. Strangely enough I was a hero to many of my former bully tormentors, they thought I must
be cool to spend an hour exploding in study hall. Needless to say many wanted me to make them some but I refrained from doing that one again! It was
years before I understood why suddenly the night janitor started treating me badly, never occured to me what he went through that night.
Later the teacher scolded me in private saying "I do not care what you make in the interest of science as long as you always bring me the exact recipe
and let me study it first!". We went to the Linda Hall Library every monday night after school and I had copied this recipe from an old 18th century
book on microfilm. I never did get around to trying that weird recipe where one of the old greats (I forget which) had written about an electrochem
experiment where he claimed to have created living white things in a beaker. I still wonder if that one was a true story but having lost the story and
recipe I never did get to try it.
Maybe someone here remembers reading about this one?
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neutrino
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That must have been a massive explosion. 1 liter of NI<sub>3</sub> mixture leveling a benchtop? How did you survive if you were stirring?
And why were you boiling it?
I seem to remember something about making a solution of some salt then adding crystals of another. Algae-like things would 'grow' because of osmotic
pressure or something along those lines. I can't find the thread tough.
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The_Davster
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Neutrino: https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3361
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IrC
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The recipe called for ammonium hydroxide, alcohol, potassium iodide, and iodine crystals IIRC. While gently boiling the mixture the crystals were
added and stirred until they dissolved. It was not an explosion like a stick of dynamite, rather a violent small explosion of a large crystal forming
inside the beaker which sent the liter flying glass and all in all directions, knocking other glassware off the bench which of course all broke. It
was not really very loud as the bulk was still wet and the explosion was inside the liter which muffled the noise. Kinda hard to describe. Why was I
stirring? The recipe didn't mention not to, nor did it mention boiling, those were my ideas. It's been many years, so I don't really remember how
forceful it was as I was in shock for a few seconds but it did send people from other nearby classrooms running so maybe it was louder than I recall.
I wish I could remember the text on the electrochemical life thing. IIRC it was written by Faraday in the late 1820's. The Linda Hall Science Library
was designed with an underground vault which was supposed to be a repository of mankinds science in the event of nuclear war. The extremely old and
rare books could only be seen as microfilm, not touched, and were kept in the stories below ground level as a safekeeping factor. You had to have
someone with credentials sign in and stay with you while you were down there, which I did from 5 till 9 every monday night for a year. I do not know
what credentials my teacher had as this was nearly 40 years ago but he could get me in the vault so surely he was more than just a teacher. The vault
was also where I read an english translation of a Japanese book on electrets (from around the 1920's IIRC), which started a lifelong interest in them
for me.
Anyway, in the book it was clear this was not some fungus (fungus as far as I know is not some white things which swim around like sea horses and this
was what Faraday described). Faraday believed he had created life in the laboratory using electricity and a chemical solution. If I had to guess this
was some text he did not publicize widely as likely he worried about looking like a kook but I clearly remember reading his entire report on it, so it
did exist although my memory of the details is poor.
Now you have me started on a search of the net to see if there is anything online about it. If I come across anything of the Faraday research I will
mention it.
Update: While searching around the net I recalled it was not a book or treatsie written by Faraday, rather it was a microfilm copy of a letter written
by Faraday to Davy, if that helps anyone else interested in searching for record of this rather cool electrochem experiment. I also dimly recall that
he mentioned doing this experiment to repeat something described in a personal letter from another of the greats of that day (I do not remember who),
where Faraday was repeating the idea told him by this other scientist, with sucessful results. I do not remember who this was but maybe it gives a
little more information to search with.
[Edited on 3-6-2006 by IrC]
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UniversalSolvent
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Elric
| Quote: | Originally posted by kyanite
Also a few things.
Search.
Google-ing. There are videos etc out there showing that a feather can set it off. I think its safe to say people shouldn't even be near it when it's
in solution, and so no doubt it will go off if the filter paper is MOVED(so forget about scraping).
So in conclusion: Cook-book = bad, funded |
I googled it before i started this thread and used wikipedia to search for more info. I saw that video and when I did i wondered what type of ammonia
they used, lab grade or household.
There must be a way to contain this stuff? Argon in a bottle with it? Maybe a gelcap with some silica gel in it?
I'm wondering how this stuff can only be one time use stuff. It's like it's only purpose is for building powdered smoke bomb booby tramps for people
in Vietnam or wartime.
BTW, stop patronizing me. I'm not reading the anarchists cookbook.
[Edited on 15-5-2005 by Edward Elric] |
1)NI3 is far too sensitive to synth is large quantities. Shoot for about a gram.
2)Wait until it is a paste to handle. Detonate immediately. It is extremely dangerous to store, so I don't recommend it, but I hear it can be stored
in 100% ethanol. Once again, only about a gram.
Oh, and if you do store it: Only for a short period of time and once the ethanol evaporates, it will become ultra-sensitive again.
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