garage chemist
chemical wizard
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The Gestapo currently hunts down hobby chemists in germany.
It's a long story, and a sad one.
Quite some time ago, there was an online chemical supplier with the nickname"chemonline" which was run by an individual, S.K.
It had a large selection of important base chemicals, like NaOH, KOH, H2SO4, HNO3, H2O2, lots of different salts , but also some otherwise hard to get
solvents like methanol (very hard to get in germany), diethylether, chloroform and more. Also interesting chemicals like NaNO2.
Metal powders and various oxidisers (KNO3, KClO3...) were also in the sortiment, as well as red phosphorus.
The great thing about this shop were the prices. They were fantastically low (like 10$ for 250g red P), because he ordered everything in industrial
quantities and repackaged it. It enabled people with a very limited budget, like young chemists still in school, to experiment with a variety of
chemicals which would otherwise be unaccessible due to price and lack of companies who ship to individuals.
Amateur chemistry was flowering at these times.
Of course this shop was illegal (but only for S.K.!), and he also valued the security of his customers by not saving any information about the ordered
chemicals.
Then he got busted. It was a sad day, and the end of easy and cheap access to chemicals.
Then now, more than a year after this incident (!!!), suddenly a lot of fellow chemists get their house searched because they ordered from there. The
search warrants (normally quite hard to get for a police officer in germany) reason this with "suspicion that the individual is making
pyrotechnical devices and mixtures without a licence".
The absolutely ridiculous thing about this is that the police knows NOTHING about which chems were ordered, and they still get a search warrant.
They just know the names of the ones who ordered there from his bank account where he received the money.
S.K. had about a thousand customers in entire germany, and ALL of them will get their house searched, (me too, it can likely be tomorrow).
No further suspicion, just the fact that they ordered "chemicals" now is enough for a search warrant.
The chemicals were always confiscated.
Sometimes, an expert for explosives accompanied the cops and looked at the chems. They have no idea what chemical experiments could be performed with
them, they just know what explosives can be made with them. They get very excited when they see acetone, as it can be made into an explosive very
easily.
And I thought that the situation in america was bad...
This sudden turning of the BRD into a police state was very shocking for us.
And there is absolutely no media coverage of those events, everything is happening undercover. We do not want to address the media, because we were
terribly betrayed by them once before where they showed us as the bad guys.
We will do our best to defend us, we will write letters to the ministry of education and research and the chemical society, and we will try to sue the
state lawyers which are responsible for this criminalization campaign, and the judges which give out search warrants no matter how far-fetched the
reason is.
We'll have to see what we can do.
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
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Hopefully you do not get in any trouble and they see what you are doing is legit.
Despite the linear forward progression of time, 1984 is closer now than ever before.
[Edited on 2-9-2005 by rogue chemist]
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cyclonite4
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That's so f**ked up. 
I wish you the best of luck in surviving garage chemist!
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neutrino
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>>see what you are doing is legit.
That doesn't happen in witch hunts, I'm afraid.
The best of luck to you.
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Mr. Wizard
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After hearing garage chemist's report, we can take Germany off the list off of Rogue Chemist's "Best Places To Be An Amateur
Chemist". Maybe he should take up another hobby now, such as geocaching?
I used to live in West Germany as a child and I remember being able to buy just about anything at the local drug stores. I don't speak German
but I think it was called an Opethitik(sp?) For a few dollars I was able to bring home ridiculous amounts of everything from KMnO4 to Chlorates,
Sulfur, and Acids. I had to bring my own bottles :-), otherwise it would all end up in paper bags. 500 gram piles of KMnO4 would disappear into
flaming purple volcanoes under the influence of 100cc of Glycerine. The nasty bitter taste of Permanganate dust is etched into my brain, and throat.
It made quite a reaction with the 30% H2O2 also. I never worried about making anything that would go bang, as you could buy fireworks by the armfuls,
and not just the little poppers either! They had these things wrapped with brown string and a fuse coming out of the corner that would rock the world.
They had another firework we called "strikers", which had a match head striker on one end. You could strike it on a match book and you had a
few seconds to get rid of it. They went like a torpedo when you threw it into a pond. The German kids called them 'U-boaten' when they threw
them into the water. I guess they don't take such a liberal attitude now ? Too bad, I had hoped it was still as it was. It's a different
time and place after 50 years.
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Magpie
lab constructor
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Garage Chemist I find your post a very sad comment for hobby chemists. This is not just a problem for Germans but for most of us who live in
countries that have had terrorist attacks. The Patriot Act in the USA is a prime example of how it is now possible to raid someone's home
without even having a search warrant.
I know you to be a good chemist who loves his hobby. I sympathize with your situation and agree that protesting through proper channels is very much
in order.
I have bought apparati from major scientific suppliers, minor suppliers, and eBay. I have bought chemicals from internet suppliers - hopefully none
that are illegal! I'm wondering now if I might expect a 3AM knock on my door.
What can we learn from this for the safe practice of our hobby? What should be our guidelines for the procurement of chemicals and apparatus?
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Sandmeyer
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I was having simillar discussion with a frined the other day and as he said - 'even Gestapo followed the law'. But, as long as you as
amateur chemist follow the law they can't put you away. Sure they can search your house -- they can search everyone's house, that's the
beauty of the 'terrorist' concept of gaining power over citizenry. But as long as there is nothing illegal in your posession they can't
take your freedom away. Know the law concearning the area of your interest and don't brake it. In my country they still have due to their
habitual stupidity a couple of compleatly incorrect compounds on the precursor list (note: these are not misspelled a la DEA, they are compleatly
unrelated - but have name simillar to the real precursor). There is no reason to brake their law, all they have is guns, no brains.
[Edited on 3-9-2005 by Sandmeyer]
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neutrino
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How do you avoid breaking a "law" like that if even nail polish remover is illegal?
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | Originally posted by neutrino
How do you avoid breaking a "law" like that if even nail polish remover is illegal? |
They always must take the business (their masters) into the consideration when making the laws. When the industry depends on a chemical they
can't simply put it on list of narcotics -- let's keep in mind that polititians are pathetic servants of the capitalist class, they are
nothing more nor less. Why do you think 1,4-butandiol and GBL is still not on list of narcotics?
This situation we can always exploit. If you really need a basic chemical that has become impossible for an non-corporate to order, you can look for
alternatives, then to make it form some other, or to register a buisness and have it.
But there is something really interesting about USA. Dave Nichols, is one of very few there who today has the so called 'DEA license' to
posess a schedule 1 compound. I can never understand how it could get to a point where a police-force can have the power to decide how and if a
specialist scientist can do his research. By what logic can they be enpowered to make such decisions? I mean, a cop might as well tell a surgeon how
and if he should preform a surgery. It simply makes no sence. Does a chemist tell a cop how he should chase some theif?
[Edited on 3-9-2005 by Sandmeyer]
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Eliteforum
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I've bought a few items from him. Always got here pronto. Glad I got a rather large order of RedP and i2 and some solvents before he got busted.
Anyone know if the site's still up? Any way of getting in touch/contact?
All that glitters isn't gold.
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neutrino
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Sandmeyer: That's generally true, but not so much in this case. The sale of these items is not illegal, only their ownership carries a stigma.
Also, I suspect this to be one of those rare cases where the politicians actually do listen to the will of the people—the will caused by irrational
fear. It is this kind of fear FDR was talking about in that famous speech: “the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning,
unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance...”
If only people today would see this sad truth.
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cyclonite4
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| Quote: | Originally posted by neutrino
“the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into
advance...” |
More like: The general population fears everything BUT fear itself.
\"It is dangerous to be right, when your government is wrong.\" - Voltaire
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12AX7
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The world needs another Rosevelt. Or three.
F.D.R. or T.R., both were great.
Tim
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | Originally posted by neutrino
Sandmeyer: That's generally true, but not so much in this case. The sale of these items is not illegal, only their ownership carries a stigma.
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I suppose you refer to I2 and red phosphorus? Well, as I said, it's a different situation if you use them to reduce ephedrine. If you use them in
a legal manner you have noting to worry about, they can carry whatever stigma (dildos are sure schocking to some) - they are either legal or not to
posess. It might be hard to find somone to sell them, but that's another question. Poison classified chamicals can't be ordered by an
individual. But, I admit, I can only speak for EU, I don't know how the system works in US.
[Edited on 3-9-2005 by Sandmeyer]
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neutrino
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I was referring to the stigma carried by acetone in garage chemist's post.
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garage chemist
chemical wizard
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Because I am sure that my hobby is legal, Im am keeping all my chems in my lab and don't store some of them away from my own ground. Doing so
would give me the feeling that I was doing something illegal.
Also, I ordered chems from there for quite some money. If my lab would look "empty" and no dangerous chemicals were present, the police
would get suspicious that I might have sold some of the chems to others, which is prohibited and a serious offense.
No trace of the police until now, but that's normal. I am going on with chemistry as usual (I still have holidays at the moment).
BTW, in germany the police would not have any suspicion about drug making if someone owned both iodine and red P. Those chems are completely legal to
possess, I'm really glad about that.
However, the mere possession of "listed drug precursors" is illegal and already a criminal offense. But the list of those precursors is very
short compared to the american list. It only contains compounds that can really only be used for drug making, e.g. ephedrine, safrole, ergotamine and
similar.
[Edited on 3-9-2005 by garage chemist]
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Sandmeyer
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don't censor yourself wirth irrationnal fear, fuck them, continue to do experiments, know the law, don't brake it and pursue your interest.
pigs can search your house, it is unplesent thought, but it is still in my opinion better to be a chemist than a zombie. flood the system with
information untill it brakes down.
http://rapidshare.de/files/4700516/04-public_enemy-rebel_wit...
[Edited on 4-9-2005 by Sandmeyer]
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Quince
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Is there any possible benefit in notifying someone, like the cops, that one is involved in amateur chemistry? I don't care if they visit for an
announced inspection, as I'd have gotten rid of the energetics by then.
\"One of the surest signs of Conrad\'s genius is that women dislike his books.\" --George Orwell
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Quince
Is there any possible benefit in notifying someone, like the cops, that one is involved in amateur chemistry? |
Of course not, never, what would be the point of that? It would just make their job easier, and their job is to fuck you up. There is no benefit at
all in giving them away more info than legally required.
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Quince
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Well I guess I don't know what's legally required here. Do chemistry setups need to be registered or what?
\"One of the surest signs of Conrad\'s genius is that women dislike his books.\" --George Orwell
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neutrino
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I'm not sure about Canada, but I'll give you a rough description of the whole situation in some states.
In some places, like TX, there's a law requiring all glassware to be registered with the police. Of course, if you tell them about your lab,
they'll just raid your house, arrest you on drug/terrorism charges, and go home for the night thinking about how easy their job is. The only
purpose to those laws is as an accusation used to get people to confess to other crimes. For example, "We could charge you with possession of
unregistered labware, thought crimes, terrorism, and murder; or you could do yourself a favor and confess to these simple little drug charges."
Either way you loose.
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Quince
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That's exactly what I was referring to, laws about registration. I guess the issue is whether to register beforehand, so at least I appear to be
kissing ass, and have them check it out expected, or wait to be raided later. What's stopping me is that I'm not a certified chemist, so
I'm not sure if I'm allowed at all to own labware. I've posted on a Canadian science site and I'm waiting for a reply on this
matter, so I'll copy it here when I find out.
[Edit] Here's the initial reply:
| Quote: | As far as I know, if you are doing chemistry not involved in illegal activities, such as creating psychoactive drugs or explosives, then you should be
ok. With an email address like yours, however, people are going to be suspicious right away.
.....
Probably a better place to ask would be at some law office, or police station. Bottom line: don't work on anything illegal and you should be
fine. But I'll still ask some chemists if they know any more than this. |
So I'm hoping to get more info.
[Edited on 6-9-2005 by Quince]
\"One of the surest signs of Conrad\'s genius is that women dislike his books.\" --George Orwell
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cyclonite4
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Quince
What's stopping me is that I'm not a certified chemist, so I'm not sure if I'm allowed at all to own labware.
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I myself have tried to by labware, and had a deal going with a supplier for some basic stuff like crucibles, beakers, reagent bottles, etc and a
distillation set. At first they were happy to sell to me, at which point I had no cash, and once I had the money to buy the stuff, I got ready to
arrange a transfer, and then they went cold on me straight away. The salesperson wouldn't reply to me anymore, neither would other salespeople...
almost as if the company shutdown over night!
I wonder if being a certified chemist would actually allow me to buy labware and chems? Would be great if I could, as I should be studying a diploma
course next year, but then again, they may only sell to companies as a whole, and not individual chemists.
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
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I have ordered labware from real scientific suppliers, the first thing they asked was "are you a teacher or is this a business order?"
These places are usually more expensive, at least the place I ordered from was way to expensive for my tastes. Now they ignore my requests for
catalogues.
[Edited on 7-9-2005 by rogue chemist]
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