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plante1999
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By experience, making an Ostwald reactor CANT be a reasonable goal unless the prize is like 1000$, and that barely cover the costs of making a reactor
that is productive.
That's why I think that making experiments that is in the reach of almost everyone in the term of budget is better, such as extracting ammonia from
proteins.
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WGTR
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plante1999, for the love of the dog, what have you done?!?! You have just said that it is impossible for me to do something!!! Now
I have no choice but to stay in the lab for the next 72 hours, proving that it can be done!!! Argghhh!!!
Seriously, though, I'm motivated differently. If I was interested in the money, I wouldn't try it unless the reward was something like 50-100k.
However, if the results were useful to a wide variety of people, then it makes my donation of time a willing one. If other people get involved with
their own designs, it makes the competition fun. I have a lot of stuff laying around my lab, and I could probably make something functional for
around $100-$200. The idea is for a lab scale process, making perhaps 1L of 20-30% nitric acid per week.
I think that extracting ammonia from proteins would be an interesting project, and anyone doing it would learn useful skills. Personally, though,
it's just not complicated enough for me. I already have a 20lb bag of ammonium sulfate in my lab, and it was dirt cheap. It's fertilizer. One thing
I don't have, however, is an easy way of making glyoxal without using nitric acid. And without glyoxal, I can't make expensive imidazole-based ionic
liquids. Without the ionic liquids, I don't have a room temperature wide electrochemical window electrolyte, and so on. Without all of that, I don't
have this cool synthesis of BMIM-HFP to post on here.
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aga
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Personally, i think as a Species we are approaching that point where we think we have enough accumulated knowledge to make the assumption that we
(collectively) know it All.
The Reality is that We don't know very much at all.
@WGTR: go for it.
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j_sum1
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You know, I would love a comp on how to make HNO3 from otc chemicals. There are a variety of routes and otc means very different things in different
parts of the world. The product may vary from dilute to 30% to azeotropic to fuming to 100% with different techniques arriving at each one. Winner
and prize would be incidental although I am sure that the rule of aga's decision is mostly final (or something of that ilk) would apply. We would end
up with a highly useful documented resource to produce a reagent of fundamental importance to people in a variety of situations.
Anyway, huge number of different ideas here. Let me add my support for a competition subforum. Perhaps the standard format could be to have two
separate threads for each competition -- one for instructions and discussion and the other for submissions. And links to the second could of course
be made in the first.
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arkoma
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aga's challenge, aga's rules...................and trust me his m***** is G**D
[Edited on 11-14-2014 by arkoma]
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
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Chemosynthesis
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I'm somewhat surprised no one gassed dry-ish HCl into a known volume or saturated solution. Anyone consider and reject this?
Edit- and yes, by gassing, I do mean NaCl or CaCl2 in sulfuric acid, or a similar generator.
[Edited on 14-11-2014 by Chemosynthesis]
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arkoma
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Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis  |
Edit- and yes, by gassing, I do mean NaCl or CaCl2 in sulfuric acid, or a similar generator.
[Edited on 14-11-2014 by Chemosynthesis] |
LMFAO
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
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The Volatile Chemist
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| Quote: Originally posted by arkoma | aga's challenge, aga's rules...................and trust me his m***** is G**D
[Edited on 11-14-2014 by arkoma] |
his m***** ? I know G**D is GD. But is m***** m /\ 4 /\ m where /\ 4 /\ is arrow notation? 
Sorry, just messing around as I have no clue as to what you were saying.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by WGTR | plante1999, for the love of the dog, what have you done?!?! You have just said that it is impossible for me to do something!!! Now
I have no choice but to stay in the lab for the next 72 hours, proving that it can be done!!! Argghhh!!!
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In 72 hours... good luck with that!
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis | I'm somewhat surprised no one gassed dry-ish HCl into a known volume or saturated solution. Anyone consider and reject this?
Edit- and yes, by gassing, I do mean NaCl or CaCl2 in sulfuric acid, or a similar generator.
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It has been done, also on SM. By me among others. Hardly a challenge though...
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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Look, some people enjoy thinking of multiple clever solutions to an easy problem. Some people have never tried to purify HCl and would find it a
challenge. Some people think this is all ridiculously simple and therefore abstain, or push themselves to complete the requirements as quickly as
possible in order to beat everyone else who found it ridiculously simple. Some people joke about booze. Who cares? It was fun.
Here's one for you, then:
Proposal: First synthesis of TEMPO starting from OTC reagents.
Prize: Can only offer $300 at the moment. The girlfriend is already watching me side-eyed after my last chemical order.
Deadline: 5/1/2014
1. Definition of OTC is "something available to the general public for purposes other than synthesis." For example, sure, you could use a bar of
silver or handfuls of lawn grass, even if you had to order them online/collect them yourself because no one around you actually sold them over a
counter.
2. You can skip steps to non-OTC intermediates if you can link to a confirmed synthesis already performed and written up on ScienceMadness.
Patent/research paper writeups must be confirmed by yourself or someone on ScienceMadness no matter how awesome they are.
3. All equipment reasonably well-available to the hobbyist is allowed.
4. Procedures must be clear, easy to follow, and accompanied by images where the synthesis was performed by yourself.
5. Teams are allowed. Name a head researcher, I'll send the prize to them, you split it up yourselves.
Thoughts?
[Edited on 11-14-2014 by Etaoin Shrdlu]
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gdflp
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There might be some issues with completing it in -6 months.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu |
Proposal: First synthesis of TEMPO starting from OTC reagents.
Prize: Can only offer $300 at the moment. The girlfriend is already watching me side-eyed after my last chemical order.
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One serious problem is characterisation of such compounds, that usually requires techniques hobbyists don't have access to.
But it would appear that the project can be 'reduced' to converting 2,2,6,6-tetramethylpiperidin-4-one to TEMPO, assuming that is at all possible, of
course.
Synthesis of 2,2,6,6-tetramethylpiperidin-4-one is very simple and OTC (ammonia and acetone, essentially):
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3960
Getting rid of the carbonyl in 2,2,6,6-tetramethylpiperidin-4-one and subsequent oxidation of the 2,2,6,6-tetramethylpiperidine to TEMPO will be a lot
harder.
There appear to be several ways of synthesising 2,2,6,6-tetramethylpiperidine, though...
[Edited on 14-11-2014 by blogfast25]
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Chemosynthesis
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis | I'm somewhat surprised no one gassed dry-ish HCl into a known volume or saturated solution. Anyone consider and reject this?
Edit- and yes, by gassing, I do mean NaCl or CaCl2 in sulfuric acid, or a similar generator.
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It has been done, also on SM. By me among others. Hardly a challenge though... |
Yeah, but what I mean is simple distillation has to have been done before, and arguably isn't much of a challenge either, though the negative
azeotrope is a bit quirky. Gassing could be more variable on time, which could be a pro despite being less friendly to those with poor ventilation.
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Metacelsus
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Wolff-Kishner reduction of the oxo compound should work, and hydrazine is possible to make from OTC materials. (I in fact have some hydrazine sulfate
prepared already). Oxidation to TEMPO shouldn't be that hard.
I am going to attempt this when I get the time. The $300 prize is definitely worth it.
[Edited on 14-11-2014 by Cheddite Cheese]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis |
Yeah, but what I mean is simple distillation has to have been done before, and arguably isn't much of a challenge either, though the negative
azeotrope is a bit quirky. Gassing could be more variable on time, which could be a pro despite being less friendly to those with poor ventilation.
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I’m game if it’s worth £50 to anyone. HCl generator to produce at least sup-azeotropic HCl (call it > 25 w%).
| Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese | Wolff-Kishner reduction of the oxo compound should work, and hydrazine is possible to make from OTC materials. (I in fact have some hydrazine sulfate
prepared already). Oxidation to TEMPO shouldn't be that hard.
I am going to attempt this when I get the time. The $300 prize is definitely worth it.
|
There’s plenty of info on TEMPO synths and it’s all doable. But I really don’t like the ‘OTC only’ restriction. It’s silly because those
who only have access to OTC chems are unlikely to want to synth TEMPO, while those capable of synthing it will have access to non-OTC chemicals, and
why should they NOT use these? Was progress in chemistry made by constantly harking back to the simplest precursors? That’s a Luddite approach, as
far as I’m concerned. With or w/o OTC, it's still a nice challenge and a first for SM.
Having said that, so far hydrazine seems to be the only non-OTC required for one route to 2,2,6,6 tetramethylpiperidine that I found.
So, good luck!
[Edited on 14-11-2014 by blogfast25]
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Metacelsus
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I'm basically just doing it for the money (if I wanted TEMPO I'd buy it). I might also try reduction with zinc, which is easier to get than hydrazine.
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | One serious problem is characterisation of such compounds, that usually requires techniques hobbyists don't have access to. |
That's not a serious problem. Not even a problem in my mind. The compound in question is very distinctive. If you follow a reasonable-looking
synthesis and get a red-orange solid that behaves as TEMPO does, I'll believe you.
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | There’s plenty of info on TEMPO synths and it’s all doable. But I really don’t like the ‘OTC only’ restriction. It’s silly because those
who only have access to OTC chems are unlikely to want to synth TEMPO, while those capable of synthing it will have access to non-OTC chemicals, and
why should they NOT use these? |
???
I want an OTC synth because non-OTC ones already exist. You're just ticked off I didn't allow free reign in precursors so you could point to
papers and remark how "easy" it was, eh? (That was meant to be more lighthearted than it came out, sorry.)
You're all thinking along the same lines as I would. But it's not a challenge for me. (EDIT: I mean, it's not directed at me, it probably would be a
challenge due to time and space constraints alone.) Glad to see someone's willing to go for it.
[Edited on 11-14-2014 by Etaoin Shrdlu]
[Edited on 11-14-2014 by Etaoin Shrdlu]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese | | I'm basically just doing it for the money (if I wanted TEMPO I'd buy it). I might also try reduction with zinc, which is easier to get than hydrazine.
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Not good enough for ketones, I think. Maybe that new method of acid + Al powder + Cu(II) salt?
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu |
I want an OTC synth because non-OTC ones already exist. You're just ticked off I didn't allow free reign in precursors so you could point to
papers and remark how "easy" it was, eh?
Glad to see someone's willing to go for it.
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You should mind your language, Sir. I didn't say or think it was easy. It isn't. Doable but not easy.
But whoever does it will do it along classic lines, probably dodging the OTC restriction somehow. No one is going to reinvent a complex wheel for the
sake of 'OTC'.
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu |
I want an OTC synth because non-OTC ones already exist. You're just ticked off I didn't allow free reign in precursors so you could point to
papers and remark how "easy" it was, eh?
Glad to see someone's willing to go for it.
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You should mind your language, Sir. I didn't say or think it was easy. It isn't. Doable but not easy.
But whoever does it will do it along classic lines, probably dodging the OTC restriction somehow. No one is going to reinvent a complex wheel for the
sake of 'OTC'. |
Apologies, I shouldn't have poked fun. I was coming back to say as much when I read your response.
Don't mind classic lines, just want to see a full synthesis accessible to home chemists. There will be no dodging of the OTC restriction unless
someone outright lies about what they used, which seems unlikely in this community.
Maybe for my next challenge I will think of something that requires a new wheel. I just like this compound.
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aga
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Light-hearted, fun, and resulting in a process that is actually useful was my main intention.
Hence calling it 'Drunken Aga's Challenge' rather than the 'Aga Foundation Global Chemistry Challenge Q4 2014'.
If anyone really wants to run a serious Competition, then raise some serious prize money, define the rules etc and do your own !
I had never heard of a negative azeotrope, so i learnt something.
Being a tedious process, it also gave me an idea as well, so well worth a few €.
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Chemosynthesis
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And now we all get banned for violating chemistry for profit prohibitions and the enabling thereof.
[/sarcasm]
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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You don't have a time machine?
I posted a separate thread with the correct end date. Sorry for hijacking your challenge, aga, I confused this with the discussion thread.
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