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Dr.Freemanstein
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[*] posted on 25-9-2005 at 14:20
Subjects Of A Questionable Nature


Okay....

Ready....

Begin "rant"

What is it with members of this board wanting to know how to blow stuff up, or get high, or even poison/gas some por innocent people???
This kind of traffic on the forum will surely end in the shutting down of the site, given the current climate.
Every time I peruse the board, there is somebody asking questions pertaining to drug/explosive/toxin manufacture, and, whilst I admit it is a valid (if not unfortunate) field in the science world, perhaps there should be clear warnings directed towards anyone posting such subjects???
I have been through that phase (and left it before puberty) so I understand the fascination, but...for the sake of the board...a little discretion please!!!

end "rant"

Thank-you :(




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[*] posted on 25-9-2005 at 17:18


If the question is phrased in a way that is appropriate to chemistry, and not a simple request to provide or refine a "recipe," then it is welcome here, regardless of connotations. Many serious students of chemistry have first had their curiousity aroused by fireworks, explosives, and drugs. Though I don't want this to become a how-to forum dedicated to manufacturing things at the expense of understanding things, neither do I wish to purge these fascinating elements altogether.

I understand that some people are probably put off by the relative freedom here, but I prefer to institute only as much control as is necessary to keep violent and stupid people from clogging the forum. I am a US citizen and this site is hosted in the US. Despite the idiocy of the last few years, there is still no legal leverage to stifle any of the discussions on this site.

[Edited on 9-26-2005 by Polverone]




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Dr.Freemanstein
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[*] posted on 25-9-2005 at 18:12


You have a good point, i am just concerned is all. Don't particularly want to end up being investigated by someone just because I have associated with someone who knows somebody who told someone etc....
As long as you and the mods keep tabs on the gung-ho types, i will feel safe to stick around :D




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[*] posted on 25-9-2005 at 19:10


Something that has been bugging me for a long time is the attitude that everyone who enjoys experimenting with explosives is some immature teenager and that they'll grow out of it like it's just some negative phase all chemists go through!
It's a valid and interesting field to alot of proffessional and amatuer chemists and not just something simple that gets people into chemistry!
/rant

Just had to say that, not directed at anyone in particular, just a general attitude I see in alot of places.

Anyway, I agree that there seem to be alot more "how cum my meth aint workin" threads popping up recently, and I can see why these would be seen as 'bad' for the forum. They also annoy me because I dislike threads that are just a simple question, with no indication the author has done any sort of personal research of any kind.
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Dr.Freemanstein
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[*] posted on 26-9-2005 at 10:55


I totally agree, the science of explosives is fascinating. However, there seem to be more people out htere that just want to blow shit up, rather than be interested in the science of an explosion and what reactions are caused by what formulae.



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[*] posted on 26-9-2005 at 12:33


You can blow shit up without knowing the science of anything.

mick
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Dr.Freemanstein
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[*] posted on 26-9-2005 at 13:26


My point exactly!!! Just "blowing shit up" is a bit freakin' pointless!! Fun, yes....but ultimately pointless!!!



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[*] posted on 26-9-2005 at 13:47


What about the concept of illegal = harder to make and get precurosr = more challenging to do.
A lot of post on this forum talk about very challenging explosive to make, which where only done for the challenge that they bring (thinking about Blaster experience on ethyl percholrate and other). As Polverone said, as long as it's not asking for a recipe and a question which clearly has mischief intent behind, it's, according to me, okay.




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[*] posted on 26-9-2005 at 16:31


Dr Freemanstein,
how exactly do you define pointless?
What IS the point in collecting chemicals, and playing with them, to see some nice colour changes, or to make this chem or another from this OTC product to another?

Seriously?

You realise 99% of what we discuss here is old-school science, things that have been worked out 100 years ago. Why do we do it?
Because we and I derive a fascination from it. It's because it's *relatively* simple, and doable, and it doesnt require 500$/g chemicals.
Explosives are just part of it. So are fast burning mixtures, fun with oxidation states, and simply the *pride* to have made this or that compound.

As Polverone correctly says, we should never forget our roots (well that's my interpretation) - most of us always come to love science and chemistry with the visually catching reactions or processes, such as pyrotechnics, thermites, dye reactions, or even electrons flying around in a loop in an Argon atmosphere -
so, again, could you tell me what the point of your personal chemical endeavours is?

I suspect its no less or more than from anyone else here. We all love chemistry, physics, biology for the sheer spectacle it produces right in front of our eyes. With chemistry, it's the pyrotechnic or oxidation or complexity, same for biology, with its vast range of organisms, all intricately functioning, or physics with its wonders of nuclear science, magneticism, or electricity.

So what's the point of it all since most of what we do is already known? It's to give you and me a real insight into the workings of nature, and to play with the forces thereof. We are tampering nature. We always have.
And I am afraid of the day when a teenager is NOT able to play with chemicals anymore for his/her personal delight, it'll mean all scientists thereafter solely do what they do becasue they are taught and educated mechanically, rather than simply and naturally be fascinated by it.

And this is precisely what I see, in the lab where I work and elsewhere - people lack a natural understanding and fascination for nature. They do what they do because they *thought it might* be interesting. Those are the ones who do a crappy PhD, to carry on to become an investment consultant. All their love for science has been a mere means to an end ( to get a doctorate).

In the end none of them will ever inspire humankind to do better....



PS yah i love to rant :)

[Edited on 27-9-2005 by chemoleo]




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Dr.Freemanstein
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[*] posted on 27-9-2005 at 00:11


You misunderstand me. I too was drwan to the world of science by playing with a chemistry set when I was younger, then came my fascination with the nuclear reaction and particle theory, now I am obsessed with lightning and I endeavor to find out more about such an awesome phenomena. Hold on.......ur all right......blowing shit up IS fun!!!!!

Wow.....I have seen the light!!!! :cool:




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[*] posted on 27-9-2005 at 10:57


Though many of the reactions discussed here migth be illegal or at least a misdemeanor in many countries, I would like to express that making / synthesizing an explosive does not mean making an explosive device and even making an explosive device does not mean making a geniune device which can be REALLY and PROFICIENTLY used for a REAL illegal purpose / activity.
That's the very reason why all of the terrorist organizations have some training camp here or there (mainly with instructors from an intelligence organizations of an industrial nation).

I believe this board does not allow any discussion about practical uses of any thing discussed here. You may make a HE or something to go HIGH here but cannot discuss practical knowledge as to how to convert the nasty substance into a real threat. Only exception to this is shaped charge thread.

However I too must express my concerns about the minors who are (like many adults) are negligent about the safety procedures. Regards.
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[*] posted on 27-9-2005 at 14:18


This board is very mild compared to roguesci. It was the pervading atmosphere of violence and destruction that prompted me to abandon roguesci and switch to sciencemadness, with its more ' research and discovery ' oriented focus.



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Dr.Freemanstein
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[*] posted on 27-9-2005 at 14:26


Quote akinmad:
I would like to express that making / synthesizing an explosive does not mean making an explosive device and even making an explosive device does not mean making a geniune device which can be REALLY and PROFICIENTLY used for a REAL illegal purpose / activity.

Correction...if you make/synthesise an explosive....you are doing just that. Making an explosive device. It is more than likely, that if you are making explosive, you intend to use it, which would mean detonation, which would precipitate an explosion. Henceforth, you would be constructing a REAL explosive device, that will be used to REALLY blow something up (admittedly probably not a train/bus/aircraft). But still, the construction of a device capable of causing explosions, is highly illegal regardless of where on earth you live. I can only derive from this that you are highlighting the difference between a homemade M80 and a plastique based device capable of levelling a building???




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[*] posted on 27-9-2005 at 15:51


Quote:
Originally posted by Dr.Freemanstein
Correction...if you make/synthesise an explosive....you are doing just that. Making an explosive device. It is more than likely, that if you are making explosive, you intend to use it, which would mean detonation, which would precipitate an explosion. Henceforth, you would be constructing a REAL explosive device, that will be used to REALLY blow something up (admittedly probably not a train/bus/aircraft). But still, the construction of a device capable of causing explosions, is highly illegal regardless of where on earth you live. I can only derive from this that you are highlighting the difference between a homemade M80 and a plastique based device capable of levelling a building???



Ack!

Freemanstein, that may be how it is in your god forsaken country, buy in Canada I am by law allowed to synthesize and experiment with small amounts of explosive substances whenever I want, so long as I adhere to the other laws of my countries’ explosives act. I can legally make substances which are explosive and energetic materials, I can even detonate them legally, but if I use or make an explosive to kill or hurt people I am breaking the law. If I were to take some of my legally made Nitroglycerin and make some Dynamite and use that Dynamite to move land or to break rocks or use it for any other “practical” applications I am breaking the law. An explosive device is made to perform or act in a specific way to do a job or act in a certain way using explosives force to move or shape something (it can be a pressure explosion even), simply detonating a sample of explosives is nothing more than an extremely fast and hot decomposition of a chemical substance into more stable substances.

There is a big difference between an explosive substance and an explosive device, you need to get that through your damn head!

[Edited on 28-9-2005 by Joeychemist]
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[*] posted on 27-9-2005 at 16:21


Really? I didn't know it was also legal to detonate them... I guess that's just because it doesn't say you can't in the law :D

The difference he (akinmad) was trying to make was no one of legality- making explosives in many countries is illegal (not mine, but there are still some restrictions if you try to store it for any amount of time) but he was saying that we are not trying to hurt people, or blow up buildings with out explosive devices despite that fact that they are in fact explosive devices.
Same kinda difference between shooting a bullet through a target at the shooting range or shooting a bullet through somebodies skull, one kills, that other is a peaceful and enjoyable activity.

Also, the shaped charge thread isn't actually that practical, it is only discussing an interesting sciencetific phenomeon, and of course sciencetists need to be able to bublicaticate results, so of course there is going to be be at least discussion about the design and consturction of a shaped charge device. Well, not practical in the sense of blowing up people and military vehicles, that is.

[Edited on 28-9-2005 by Chris The Great]
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Dr.Freemanstein
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[*] posted on 27-9-2005 at 23:54


Quote:
Originally posted by Chris The Great
but he was saying that we are not trying to hurt people, or blow up buildings with out explosive devices despite that fact that they are in fact explosive devices.
Same kinda difference between shooting a bullet through a target at the shooting range or shooting a bullet through somebodies skull, one kills, that other is a peaceful and enjoyable activity.


Thats the best way I have seen it put so far, I totally agree. Like "Guns don't kill people...people kill people"!

Its just a shame that, that scum are allowed to exist!




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[*] posted on 28-9-2005 at 15:22


Quote:
Originally posted by Chris The Great
and of course sciencetists need to be able to bublicaticate results...


Huh? :P

So the synthesis of explosive compounds is illegal in the U.S.? I wasn't too interested in explosives anyways. I guess it would be nice if we could all have the right to own and operate our own explosive test sites with minimal supervision and paperwork, and not get hurt, but that's not the way it is. I feel that if for some reason I'm investigated for my chemical activities, it will help immensely to have no "bad" history whatsoever concerning explosives; I'm more interested in pottery and more mundane inorganic compounds. Getting in trouble for operating the furnace during the fire season or something isn't nearly as bad as getting arrested as a terrrorist!

I feel it's a good idea to choose our battles wisely...

As for drugs and drug precursors, merely making a compound because it's interesting (white phosphorus for example) is fine, but people who make drugs in order to get high are fools. They immensely degrade the public's image of chemistry, and they are the part of the problem behind the "chemophobia" that makes life so difficult for genuine amateur chemists. Plain and simple.

Cyrus




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[*] posted on 28-9-2005 at 15:32


Why is it foolish to make drugs?

Alcohol, ethanol, and the destillation thereof, isn't considered foolish. And it certainly is a strong drug, considering the damage it does.

It's all a very tricky subject, and there aren't many black and white solutions.




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[*] posted on 28-9-2005 at 18:46


Quote:
Originally posted by chemoleo
Why is it foolish to make drugs?


It isn't (except under current law which finds it criminal). Using them however is downright idiotic.

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Dr.Freemanstein
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[*] posted on 29-9-2005 at 10:30


Quote:
Originally posted by chemoleo
Why is it foolish to make drugs?

Alcohol, ethanol, and the destillation thereof, isn't considered foolish. And it certainly is a strong drug, considering the damage it does.

It's all a very tricky subject, and there aren't many black and white solutions.


Thats funny....i was unbder the impression that the unlicenced distillation of alchohols was illegal too.....at least here i good ol blighty!!!

Not to mention that making it can result in nasty side effects like fires, explosions, blindness etc...

Cyrus....
You got it nailed buddy!! My girlfrined tried to buy some Citric Acid for a friend to use in baking, and had a tough time finding it anywhere because shops have stopped selling it!!! The reason given???

Drug dealers use it to cut with!!! Stop selling it...make life harder for them!!!




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[*] posted on 29-9-2005 at 12:15


Alcohol can be distilled legally, IFF you denature it for fuel use, IIRC. Which I guess means it's illegal for those two hours it sits in the reciever as it collects before you can denature it, or something, I don't know. Maybe that has one of those "use in 24 hours" things, if that isn't an imaginary loophole.

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[*] posted on 29-9-2005 at 19:03


Actually, I’d consider that one of those ‘use before they catch you’ things. This nitpicking is a bit of a gray area and would probably depend on your lawyer.
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[*] posted on 2-10-2005 at 11:07
This Is a VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE you have brought up!


There has been more than one organization that make it a point to harrass web sites that are in their opinion "bomb making information sites" and legislation to do the same. The focus of this board was well thought out. And I believe that it will continue to be a source of information and an appropriate interchange of ideas for years to come.
I don't believe that one needs to be as strict as roguesci became but I understand the issues involved. THEY actually were attacked by some crusading jerks and their ISP was pressured.
Just the same, when someone obviously posts a "KeWl B0Mz"-type post that should be deleted ASAP..... This is just common sence and self preservation. I don't believe that the posting of chem-weapons and related subject matter should be taken lightly. Posts that deal w/ same via OTC sources are inviting a serious look and a response. The subject, per se' should be open for discussion as should all things in life but we live in a very different world now and we would be foolish to ignore the realities of open dissemination of OTC chem weapons.
Energetic materials are NOT what I believe the authorities are focused on but they ARE looking at WMD info that does exist on the web.
I don't know the whole story but the major hit (I believe) that roguesci got was when an Arab web site linked to them. That's whenI think some crap started happening that was very unfortunate.

[Edited on 2-10-2005 by quicksilver]




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[*] posted on 2-10-2005 at 13:19


Quote:
Originally posted by Cyrus
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris The Great
and of course sciencetists need to be able to bublicaticate results...


Huh? :P


ME SPEEKS TEH ENGLSH GREAT GOOD!
Should be duplicate. Dunno how it became bublicaticate.


Quote:
I don't believe that the posting of chem-weapons and related subject matter should be taken lightly. Posts that deal w/ same via OTC sources are inviting a serious look and a response. The subject, per se' should be open for discussion as should all things in life but we live in a very different world now and we would be foolish to ignore the realities of open dissemination of OTC chem weapons.


CWs are chemistry too, and one that is often not discussed and never experimented in yet. Just because like other chemicals (explosives, drugs, etc) they can cause harm doesn't mean we should immediately discourage discussion against them.
Besides, terrorists already made nerve gas, they couldn't figure out how to use it effectively at all, and they could have killed more people by spending their $11 million on ammonium nitrate and diesal. Nerve agents suck for WMD style attacks if you don't know how to use them, and you certainly aren't going to learn that here. None of us really care how to weaponize CW just how to make them and such. As well as the biological effects, that is another interesting area of research nowadays since there is new stuff being discovered on how nerve agents actually effect the human body.

Blah blah the essential point of my post is that we are a chemistry board, we discuss chemistry but not the generally frowned upon practical use of some of that chemistry, and that banning certain topics because they are considered bad by the government is a horrible form of self censorship and should never be done as long as we maintain our dedication to freedom especially to freedom of speech.

[Edited on 2-10-2005 by Chris The Great]
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[*] posted on 3-10-2005 at 07:43


Quote:

Blah blah the essential point of my post is that we are a chemistry board, we discuss chemistry but not the generally frowned upon practical use of some of that chemistry, and that banning certain topics because they are considered bad by the government is a horrible form of self censorship and should never be done as long as we maintain our dedication to freedom especially to freedom of speech.


I would not argue with that from a generalist standpoint. I agree for the most part. Where I have concerns is that the subject matter (chem-weps) often would invite those with a maturity level of a child and then we would be presenting the discussion for attack on the grounds that it would not be a chemestry discourse but a "how-to" discussion for anyone with an interest (thus, a disturbed individual, an idiot, etc).
My point here is similar to gun-control agruments in that it is obvious that the person pulls the trigger but the gun (the object) receives blame for an attack because it "was available". We hear those points of wiew all the time and providing information invites that response (knowlege is power)....and I just don't want to see the people here get any heat for ANY DISCUSSION in science. But let's face it; it happens all too frequently. Princiipally due to that mind-set (i.e. the object or subject is to blame). There are some very narrow minded activists in this world.
Can you imagine blowing up a building that does life-saving research because animals are involved? It happens all the time. Can you imagine how the media could "pump-up the storyline" of this discussion board if it would further a politician's agenda?
Do a "Google" on the "Fienstein Bill, Bombmaking information on the web" and let me know what you think. It will possibly get you a bit angry....but it's very real and strongly supported.




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