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woelen
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This time I really have to agree with the other members! You MUST change things.
Point 1: Don't store chemicals in a place where you live many hours a day (bedroom, kitchen, living room). Even if you have good containers, there
will be vapors and/or dust. You are exposed to chemicals in small quantities, which do not pose an immediate risk, but what is the effect in the long
run? It is just as with smoking cigarettes. From one, or even a few cigarettes you will not get ill, but what if you smoke every day? Your exposure to
chemicals builds up over the days, weeks, months, years. Avoid this! Put them in a garage, or in an attic room, but not where you are many hours a
day.
Point 2: Don't experiment in a place where you live. This probably is even worse than storing things in a place where you live. Experiments always
introduce vapor and dust, no matter how clean you are working.
Point 3: Some of your chemicals can be accessed by animals and who knows also by children. The stuff in the lawn can be picked up by anyone. Keep
chemicals in a safe place where only you and your parents can access them.
If you care for your long term health change points 1 and 2 and if you care for other's health and safety also change point 3.
You are fortunate that I don't see really toxic stuff in your list, just the more common acids and ferricyanide. So, you are not yet exposed to bad
vapors or cumulative poisons. But I know that in due time you tend to collect more and more chemicals, including the more toxic/cumulative stuff, such
as metals salts (e.g. nickel, cobalt, lead) or organic solvents other than the simple alcohols and acetic acid, and then the long-term low-level
exposure REALLY becomes a problem.
Now is the time to take action 
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pHzero
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Quote: Originally posted by woelen  | This time I really have to agree with the other members! You MUST change things.
Point 1: Don't store chemicals in a place where you live many hours a day (bedroom, kitchen, living room). Even if you have good containers, there
will be vapors and/or dust. You are exposed to chemicals in small quantities, which do not pose an immediate risk, but what is the effect in the long
run? It is just as with smoking cigarettes. From one, or even a few cigarettes you will not get ill, but what if you smoke every day? Your exposure to
chemicals builds up over the days, weeks, months, years. Avoid this! Put them in a garage, or in an attic room, but not where you are many hours a
day.
Point 2: Don't experiment in a place where you live. This probably is even worse than storing things in a place where you live. Experiments always
introduce vapor and dust, no matter how clean you are working.
Point 3: Some of your chemicals can be accessed by animals and who knows also by children. The stuff in the lawn can be picked up by anyone. Keep
chemicals in a safe place where only you and your parents can access them.
If you care for your long term health change points 1 and 2 and if you care for other's health and safety also change point 3.
You are fortunate that I don't see really toxic stuff in your list, just the more common acids and ferricyanide. So, you are not yet exposed to bad
vapors or cumulative poisons. But I know that in due time you tend to collect more and more chemicals, including the more toxic/cumulative stuff, such
as metals salts (e.g. nickel, cobalt, lead) or organic solvents other than the simple alcohols and acetic acid, and then the long-term low-level
exposure REALLY becomes a problem.
Now is the time to take action |
Right, tomorrow I'm going to claim the garage. All its got in there (of mine) so far is a 25kg sack of NaOH and a 25l fermenting bin bubbling away.
There's a chest of drawers at the back which I can store small bottles in, and shelves where I can put bigger things, but thats probably a bad idea
cause they'll fall and smash. Still need to do something about lighting, all there is is a terminal block hanging from the ceiling... I might cycle
down to homebase and get some £9.99 fluorescent tubes
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entropy51
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We are looking at the reason that chemicals are no longer available to all of us down at the corner drug store or even from Fisher.
Those of us who grew up in the 1950's with chemistry sets learned how to handle chemicals. By the time we were old enough to talk the pharmacist into
selling us nitric acid and chloroform we had learned how to store and use chemicals, and we usually didn't get into trouble.
Unfortunately this is an unintended consequence of isolating school age people from chemicals: they have no clue!
pHzero, I have to echo the comments of the others, and I would add another caution: please don't buy such large quantities of chemicals. What would
have been a minor accident with 100 mL will be a catastrophe with 5 liters!
If a suspicious meter reader or an unfriendly neighbor calls the police, there is a very real chance that you will end up in prison. These days, if
it looks like a meth lab a prosecutor can convince the average chemophobic jury that it is a meth lab.
Time to get your act together.
A 25 kg sack of NaOH? It will probably turn in a soggy mass of sodium carbonate before you can use it all. It absorbs both CO2 and moisture if
exposed to air.
[Edited on 5-6-2009 by entropy51]
[Edited on 5-6-2009 by entropy51]
[Edited on 6-6-2009 by entropy51]
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len1
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Sign of the crazy times we live in. Those slightly older and so lucky enough to remember a different world will know that its possible to live
without a duplicious pretence at safety - just common sense. There were no MSDS sheets then, chemical danger signs, fire retardant cabinets were not
used for ordinary solvents even in large institutions. And what a surprise - people concentrated on doing real science. As they say idle hands do
the devils work. MSDS sheets are mostly a waste of time - written to avoid litigation should anything happen. Every concern has chemical hazard
signs now for same reason. When every door has these signs, and all chemicals are labelled as a potential hazard we have finally achieved our aim.
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panziandi
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pHzero, get down to homebase B&Q Argos etc, get the lights and storage sorted out. Safely store your chemicals first, then get a bag of mixed
bungs off eBay and some safety equipment etc then you can handle your chemicals safely. Then I think you should grab a camera and start snapping some
piccies of some chemistry! 
P.S.
1) I think I see Dichromate in his photos so woelen... he has a nice large plastic bag or cat II carcinogen.
2) Only Sauron and Hector should buy in bulk
[Edited on 5-6-2009 by panziandi]
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pHzero
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| Quote: Originally posted by panziandi | pHzero, get down to homebase B&Q Argos etc, get the lights and storage sorted out. Safely store your chemicals first, then get a bag of mixed
bungs off eBay and some safety equipment etc then you can handle your chemicals safely. Then I think you should grab a camera and start snapping some
piccies of some chemistry!
P.S.
1) I think I see Dichromate in his photos so woelen... he has a nice large plastic bag or cat II carcinogen.
2) Only Sauron and Hector should buy in bulk
[Edited on 5-6-2009 by panziandi] |
Haha, yep, will do  And yeah, I got the dichromate to measure the % ethanol in a
solution. I don't really need 3kg, but you could get 3kg for 20 quid or 1kg for 15, so i went for 3kg
And len1, I know exactly what you mean. Dichromate and KCN are both given the same health warning. Although it wouldnt be at all advisable, you could
probably eat a few grams of dichromate fairly safely. And then ferric chloride - its classified as corrosive, but i know from my own personal
experience that all it does is make your skin feel dry. And its classified the same way as sulfuric acid, or even peroxymonosulfuric acid.
Entropy1, I got a 25kg sack of NaOH because:
It was cheap, £28 delivered.
Its useful as a general purpose base
You can use it to make hydrogen by adding aluminium foil
It only contains Na+ ions, oxygen and hydrogen, so there's no environmental problem with it
[Edited on 5-6-2009 by pHzero]
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
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"Haha, yep...You could probably eat a few grams of dichromate fairly safely."
Well, if you ignore the fact that it ulcerates mucous membranes, and is a known carcinogen. The lethal dose is 25 mg/kg, so assuming you weigh 50 kg,
it cerainly wouldn't be a good idea to eat a "few grams", would it?
"It was cheap...so there's no environmental problem with it."
No one needs 25 Kg of caustic alkali in their home or garage. I haven't used 25 kg in the past 50 years. How will you dispose of all these materials
when you lose interest in chemistry? And you probably will, since it's becoming painfully obvious that you aren't taking chemistry seriously.
As, I said "no clue". Haha, yep.
[Edited on 5-6-2009 by entropy51]
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pHzero
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| Quote: Originally posted by entropy51 | "Haha, yep...You could probably eat a few grams of dichromate fairly safely."
Well, if you ignore the fact that it ulcerates mucous membranes, and is probably a carcinogen.
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Ok, you're taking that quote out of conext. I meant relatively, compared to KCN. I'm not saying that its a good idea to go eating hexavalent chromium,
I'm just trying to say that the two things are in a completely different league.
[Edited on 5-6-2009 by pHzero]
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Jor
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No dichromate has high acute toxicity. The mentioned lethal doses very between sources but it is between 1 and 10 grams. The result of poisoning is
liver failure (or was it kidney?). I read a medical report where someone attempted suicide with dichromate. His liver (or kidney's, dont remember) was
failing, and they were ready to give him a new healthy organ, but waited on purpose to let the organ absorb as much chromium as possible, so that the
new organ would suffer little damage. Without treatment the person would have died. And he ingested only a few grams! Sorry I'm going offtopic.
So with the chemicals you have now, you could experiment in your room, but I would not advice it at all. However, dichromate is an unacceptable risk
to use in a living quarters. It is a cat 1 known human carcinogen by inhalation, and probably carcinogenic by other routes although this has not been
proven. It causes lung cancer.
Because it is cheap don't just buy it! If I want I can buy 10 liters of chloroform for 60 EUR, 25L of 65% nitric acid for 40 EUR or 5kg of sodium
dichromate for 30 EUR. But having these materials at home at such quantities, is not responsible, and you will ask for trouble. Instead stay with
100g-250g quantities, and if possible even less. Only the common chemicals like acids, common solvents and standard chems like NaOH should be present
is larger quantities, but no more than 2,5L. I have no single chemicals present in my lab in larger quantities that 1L, except for NaOH (1,5Kg),
sulfuric acid (3L), nitric acid (1,5L) and hydrochloric acid (6L ). I also have
a liter of all these acids stored in a house far away from me in the countryside, as I dont need it for a long time.
But remember I store these in a lab wich is a much more safe environment than yours, I think. See some pics here:
http://amateurchemie.nl/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=54
Some things have changed. All acids are in containment trays and ALL flammables and toxins are stored in a flammables cabinet, wich is lockable.
Oh, and ofcourse NaHCO3 you can store as much as you want. It probably less hazardous than table salt. Keep it small to keep it safe !
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panziandi
Hazard to Others
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pHzero:
I think you are grossly underestimating dichromates:
"Lowest Published Lethal Dose:
LDL [Man] - Route: Oral; Dose: 143 mg/kg
LDL [Child] - Route: Oral; Dose 26 mg/kg (Potassium dichromate)"
Lethal doses are usually listed as LD50 since its an average because toxicity of a compound depends on the metabolism of the individuals, however
143mg/kg assuming a weight of 55kg would be 7865mg (7.87g) of potassium dichromate. That would lead to acute poisoning. Dichromate is carcinogenic
(whilst you are cycling to homebase, call into blockbuster and rent Erin Brochovich) so ok you consume "a few grams" your clever body will recognise
Cr(VI) as sulphur... it will get around to killing you a few years later no doubt.
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Jor
National Hazard
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| Quote: Originally posted by panziandi | pHzero:
I think you are grossly underestimating dichromates:
"Lowest Published Lethal Dose:
LDL [Man] - Route: Oral; Dose: 143 mg/kg
LDL [Child] - Route: Oral; Dose 26 mg/kg (Potassium dichromate)"
Lethal doses are usually listed as LD50 since its an average because toxicity of a compound depends on the metabolism of the individuals, however
143mg/kg assuming a weight of 55kg would be 7865mg (7.87g) of potassium dichromate. That would lead to acute poisoning. Dichromate is carcinogenic
(whilst you are cycling to homebase, call into blockbuster and rent Erin Brochovich) so ok you consume "a few grams" your clever body will recognise
Cr(VI) as sulphur... it will get around to killing you a few years later no doubt. |
A bit offtopic but how does your body recognize dichromate as sulfur? I always thought the cells could easily absorb chromates, and in the cells
Cr(VI) is reduced to Cr(III) via Cr(V), wich produces hydroxyl radicals with will cause mutations. Also the Cr(III) although harmless in very low
concentrations, will disturb DNA polymerisation and cause mutations in DNA. So Cr(III) is the real bad one (forms so many complexes, including DNA,
while dichromate is actually non-coordinating), but dichromate is just a way to get chromium into the cell as Cr(III) can hardly get into the cell
AFAIK. Besides Cr(III) probably complexes proteins involved as soon as it is formed, while Cr(III)-compounds absorbed are already complexed to water
or Cl(-), or something else and are very inert.
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panziandi
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Chromate or Cr(VI) is recognised as sulphate my ion channels IIRC and is thus imported into cells. Within the cell it is then able to cause toxicity
by various routes, reduction to Cr(III), oxidation of various compounds. I haven't read up on the toxicology of Cr(VI) for quite a few years but many
studies are out there in the literature.
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Ozonelabs
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I think that pHzero has gotten the point.
He was wrong and he will hopefully be rectifying his mistakes.
Back on topic, here is a new item of glassware we have recently acquired-
Designed to be attached to the vacuum port of a Rotovap at the top port and to the vacuum source on the bottom one. The reservoir is to be filled with
Dry Ice/Acetone in order that any vapors not condensed by the condenser don't get into the vacuum pump.
Also, it can be used to conveniently liquify gases. Demonstrations of this use will be posted up soon!
The miscellaneous bottles behind the main piece of glass are for shipping out chemicals to the members of this site that have placed orders with us!
Thanks,
Ozonelabs
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Sedit
International Hazard
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Registered: 23-11-2008
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@pHzero
Don't hurry and go clean your yard for the folks here,
Don't go and store them bottles the way the people here want you to either.
Do it for your self. You enjoy chemistry and I think that being able to look at nice collection of chemicals stored where they can be seen and is safe
will make you feel more like a chemist then all the glassware and chemicals in the world. A good clean work area is something that will make you feel
as though you have stepped up from lowly splish splash experimenter to an amuture chemist... Even if you keep with the splish splash chemistry. My work area is crap ... Just a bench and a bunch of homemade equipment and seeing
equipment like ozones above me make me hate some of you(.....in a good way ). But
let me tell you the cleaner and more organized your work area becomes the more confidence you will gain to tackle more daunting projects that you
would not have even dreamed of before.
Do it for your self Phzero not for us at all.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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1281371269
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Here here!
Let's face it - if something does go badly wrong with the way he stores his chemicals, the only one that he will harm is himself (and maybe an unlucky
cat...but hey, Schrödinger killed plenty of them).
People with badly arranged labs are not the reason it's no longer possible to easily buy chemicals, rather, terrorism, drugs, and media promoted fear
of science are to blame.
Chemistry is a new hobby for me, but I know from another of my hobbies, woodwork, that what Sedit says is exactly true - in fact I knew someone who
spent two years sorting out his workshop before he even made anything! (And then promptly moved house...) Having a nice work area, in this case lab,
will not make you better at what you are doing but it will increase the effeciency with which you are able to go about it, as well as your pride in
what you are doing.
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UnintentionalChaos
International Hazard
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mossydie |
People with badly arranged labs are not the reason it's no longer possible to easily buy chemicals, rather, terrorism, drugs, and media promoted fear
of science are to blame.
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But, the more badly arranged a lab is, especially with bottles on the lawn and such, the more likely it is to be noticed by the police or people who
might call the police. Then you have everyone in the neighborhood freaking out, and you stand a good chance of losing all of your stuff and being
taken to court as a suspected drug cook. All of this is not good publicity for our hobby. Plus, even if they don't find you guilty, people will assume
that all hobby chemists are irresponsible with chemicals and are putting their communities in danger.
[Edited on 6-6-09 by UnintentionalChaos]
Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!
'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
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1281371269
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No, they're more likely to assume that they are living next to a scary crazy person whom the police are 'taking care of'. I don't think any but a few
members of the public are aware of chemistry as a hobby, and if they are then only on a cheap chemistry set level and not with lots of scary looking
glassware and chemicals. Anyone working with such things is immediately assumed a bomber or drug maker. The point I make is that very little is likely
to lower the public's impression of such activities, and until the ridiculous 'war on terror' thing gets forgotten it is unlikely to get higher,
either.
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
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Registered: 18-11-2003
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Mood: .
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mossydie |
People with badly arranged labs are not the reason it's no longer possible to easily buy chemicals, rather, terrorism, drugs, and media promoted fear
of science are to blame.
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Bingo, but rather it is the media and politicians almost entirely. I do not blame drugs or terrorism, it is when the media, which is largely people
with no science background, attempt to report on the things that they could not understand in highschool or university. And the politicians for
creating the useless laws by which someone doing nothing causing harm can be arrested for.
The average sheep does not know what white phosphorus is. When their TV tells them that its used to make drugs or in incendiary munitions (that burn
THE CHILDREN!!!) we then get the laws regarding simple possession that can be applied against those with no malicious intent.
But perhaps it would be best to get back to the topic of lab pictures, I am sure he understands what would be a good idea to do with his chemicals
now.
[Edited on 6-6-09 by The_Davster]
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len1
National Hazard
Posts: 595
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| Quote: |
People with badly arranged labs are not the reason it's no longer possible to easily buy chemicals, rather, terrorism, drugs, and media promoted fear
of science are to blame.
|
Last century we had drugs and terrorism (in the 1970's hijackings were almost as regular as explosions in iraq, and we had the mass killing of the
Israeli olympic team in 1972). None of these things have altered much, here now as then. Yet it didnt even occur to me there could be anything
sinister in my cupboard of chemicals at home - I often did experiments in the garage where the neighbours could see - once again no one had any
thoughts of the types people have at present.
Now they think completely differently. Why? People need bogies - something bad they are fighting against - a cause. If there isnt an enemy - theyll
find one. Last century we had the cold war, plus memories of the very real calamities of WWII stopped us from becoming too precious. Now as these
fad new things had to be found.
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
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Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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| Quote: |
People need bogies - something bad they are fighting against - a cause.
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Yes, it wasn't so long ago that people were being burned at the stake for being a witch, in the US.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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1281371269
Hazard to Others
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Ha, I like the picture, what a great film that is...
The thing is, fear of chemistry is just too easy! People don't really look at the risks on a quantative level. For example, I could buy a bandsaw (if
I saved up the money...) and no one would bat an eyebrow, even though it could take fingers off in less than a second. I often work with heavy bits of
wood spinning at a few hundred rpm and don't think twice about it. But when something's sitting in a glass tube, fuming and bubbling away happily to
itself, it is very scary - partly I expect due to fear of the unknown which is built in safety measure resulting from the process of evolution /
natural selection.
I have a few times read the MSDS of some or other element or compound and refused to allow myself to get any, even though with the correct precautions
it would be highly unlikely to do any damage.
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
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I'm just wondering how much of a lab I could set up with $350? That's all I have, and my parents just won't buy labware/chems.
Provided I have two 100 mL Round (round) bottom flasks, 1 beaker (250 mL), 1 reflux condenser, one 100 mL graduated cylinder, polypropylene I believe,
one 10 mL glass graduated cylinder, a funnel, somehow some 100 um paper filters that take quite a while to work, and 10 test tubes.
I'm just starting out, doing this whole operation in the summer.
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UnintentionalChaos
International Hazard
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane | I'm just wondering how much of a lab I could set up with $350? That's all I have, and my parents just won't buy labware/chems.
Provided I have two 100 mL Round (round) bottom flasks, 1 beaker (250 mL), 1 reflux condenser, one 100 mL graduated cylinder, polypropylene I believe,
one 10 mL glass graduated cylinder, a funnel, somehow some 100 um paper filters that take quite a while to work, and 10 test tubes.
I'm just starting out, doing this whole operation in the summer. |
Well, are you more interested in organic, inorganic, microscale stuff? Those paper filters are probably meant to be used with a proper buchner funnel,
through which the liquid moves fairly quickly.
I would put an aspirator and buchner funnel/filtering flask high up on your list as they save a lot of frustration. Also, it's just about pointless to
try much preparative work without a scale. I've tried.
I've spent about $1000 on equipment so far and know there is at least another couple hundred before I'm completely settled. (for now). I have a
complete 24/40 ground glass distillation/fractionating/etc. setup (with a large selection of boiling/reaction and recieving flasks) running off a
Corning PC-351 hot plate stirrer. I have beakers, crucibles, watch glasses, graduated cylinders, a buret, 250x test tubes, evaporating dishes, a
vacuum filtration setup, a full set of volumetric flasks from 1L down to 10mL, seperatory funnels, and a good lab scale (two decimal places with glass
windscreens. After my $30 "pocket scale" kicked the bucket, I splurged on a much higher quality one) Hell, I probably have $100 of containers for
various chemicals, including 3 dozen 1L amber glass reagent bottles.
Soon to come: fume hood and a good grid to hang my nice castaloy clamps off of. Right now, I have two questionable upright rod stands which let me
distill just fine, but are pretty seriously lacking.
[Edited on 6-7-09 by UnintentionalChaos]
Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!
'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
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Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
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Mood: Manic Expressive
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I discussed a micro organic chemistry set here:http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11665
I felt it was a fair price at around $350 or so but others here felt that it may or maynot be. Ebay has really cheep stuff but I am a little leary of
it because atlest I know what I get from Ace has a warrenty with it. Sadly money situation went south real quick as I was writing that threed so I
never got a chance to purchase the articals I wanted
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
Posts: 371
Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Mood: alive
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I'm more into organic/inorganic. Microscale kind of.... idk.... offs me.
Corrections. I checked my inventory: I have four 250 mL Florence flasks (2 flat, 2 round), and one 100 mL beaker (these are corrections.
They are all (except the plastic graduated cylinder) made by a company called Borosil, which is probably based in India (where I bought these). Ebay
seems OK to me for pure reagents, but sometimes the prices are too much. I've only got $350, and I already see a Pyrex kit for $530..... already over
my budget. I did however find a nice distillation kit for $199, but that's already more than 1/3 of my budget.... Is it worth it? I would need to buy
a heating device, which would already be another 1/3 of my budget.
Is there any way to measure what size my two flasks are? (Like 24/40 etc). When I bought them from a dusty old surplus store they made no mention of
it.
What really bothers me is that glassware/labware already costs more than 2/3 of my budget  . That means I'll have very little for chemicals.
[Edited on 7-6-2009 by Rich_Insane]
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