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plante1999
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I was not being sarcastic.
[Edited on 29-1-2015 by plante1999]
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aga
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That is totally AWESOME !
Brilliant work WGTR.
Truly Brilliant.
U2U please.
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Zombie
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Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  | I think the point is that some items are not available at every corner store. There are many places whee nitrates are restricted. Sulfuric acid is
almost impossible to find otc where I live. And there are historically numerous novel routes to nitric acid.
Therefore to have a highly accessible method for nitric acid is a good idea. Something that is not dependent on certain supplies is also a good idea.
I am not really expecting an armageddon or totalitarian state situation personally but the chemistry implications of such a situation are an
interesting exploration. |
Cold packs, hydrogen peroxide, copper and battery acid? Hard to find?
"An instant cold pack is a device that consists of two bags; one containing water, inside a bag containing ammonium nitrate, calcium ammonium nitrate
or urea."
The reactions can be done in peanut butter jars. No offense meant gentlemen. Sorry if I distracted anyone.
Just sayin'
[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Zombie]
[Edited on 29-1-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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morganbw
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Nitric acid has been around for hundreds of years. It will not go away because of some regulation.
So far I have seen no one reinventing the wheel on new ways to make it.
It would surely be nice if someone would come up with an efficient industrial process that fit nicely with the common home chemist. I just have not
seen it yet.
For me I prefer to buy it, but I have made fuming nitric acid in the past.
Good luck guys, I hope to benefit from your hard work.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by morganbw | Nitric acid has been around for hundreds of years. It will not go away because of some regulation.
So far I have seen no one reinventing the wheel on new ways to make it.
It would surely be nice if someone would come up with an efficient industrial process that fit nicely with the common home chemist. I just have not
seen it yet.
For me I prefer to buy it, but I have made fuming nitric acid in the past.
Good luck guys, I hope to benefit from your hard work. |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yE7v4wkuZU
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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morganbw
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Thanks Zombie,
I have seen that video, in a way it reinforces what I posted. Nothing new as it is touching on chemistry that has been around for a very long time.
I have used one of the methods outlined, which was the nitrate and H2SO4 method for some nitric acid I was needing a long time ago.
All of this is very old school, and is the main reason I posted that nitric acid is not going away from hobbyist.
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by morganbw]
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Zombie
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That's also what I am saying. The challenge goal seems to have fallen into a re-invention of the wheel contest.
Respectfully I admire the thinking... It's going miles from easy. I sure cant build some spinning thing that converts woodchucks or squirrels into
anything acceptable by societal standards. I'm looking at the trees, not the forest.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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morganbw
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | That's also what I am saying. The challenge goal seems to have fallen into a re-invention of the wheel contest.
Respectfully I admire the thinking... It's going miles from easy. I sure cant build some spinning thing that converts woodchucks or squirrels into
anything acceptable by societal standards. I'm looking at the trees, not the forest. |
Agree
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j_sum1
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Ok.
In my town, auto parts places do not sell H2SO4. Neither do hardware stores. Neither does the specialist battery shop.
Cold packs are available from the pharmacy but are rather expensive. Also, it is far from clear what is in them. I know what I would like to be in
them but I also know that there are a few different endothermic reactions used. It is just not a sensible source.
Nitrate fertilisers are available, but I haven't seen high percentage nitrates in garden supplies or hardware stores.
So, tell me about your method now.
As I see it, this thread fills a niche -- educational if nothing else.
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Zombie
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Wallmart, pharmacy, IGA groceries, 7-11 stores, Dollar stores all have cold packs.
Look at the side to be sure it is ammonium nitrate. You get two packs for about 20 bucks, and @ contains about 200gr.
Mix w/ enough distilled water to completely dissolve, and filter out the stuff that doesn't dissolve. It's some sort of drying agent or anti cake
stuff.
Evaporate off the water, and you are good to go there.
The rest is in the video I posted... Go to the junk yard if needed, and empty a few batteries OR ace hardware for a 10 dollar gallon, and a half of
sulfuric acid.
I use a filter flack, and an aquarium hose. Combine the ammonium nitrate, and sulfuric acid, in the flask (50/50 ratio) and stopper off. The hose side
goes into a bottle of hydrogen peroxide (2 oz or so) in an ice bath. Heat the acid mix till it starts to react, and bubble thru the peroxide. You can
test on an old penny.
I'm not versed at the lingo or method to properly explain it but I hope my explanation is clear enough to fit into the thread. Backyard nitric acid @
30 bucks for 2-4 oz, and off the radar.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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WGTR
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If the concept of making an acid from air, water, and electricity doesn't excite you, then it doesn't. It won't appeal to everyone.
This is an international forum, and various people here have different levels of difficulty in procuring nitrates or nitric acid. Just because it is
in your corner store, doesn't mean that it will be there next year. If you noticed Chuck Schumer's latest photo op, he was clutching an ammonium
nitrate cold-pack in his fist. That silly rascal.
Nitric acid is such a ubiquitous chemical for the lab that it is good to explore ways of ensuring that it remains available to the amateur chemist.
Distilling it from cold packs is one way, making it from air is yet another. One method may work better than the other depending on one's local
situation. Here in the U.S. it's not a problem right now. I currently have gallons of fuming nitric at my disposal (and have no use for it). If I
need something, I can order it from Fisher and get it in a couple of days.
Anyway, I'm surprised by all the attention my short video received. It was intended as a status update on an incomplete project. It seemed like
interest was waning in the thread, and there was some disappointment in the lack of submissions. I posted it then just to add some life to the
thread, and inspire other interested competitors not to give up.
I put a couple months of evenings into simplifying this project. The concept began life as PWM converter that would run on a 12V battery. It would
create a high frequency sine wave, which would then be stepped up by a home-made transformer to 50V. A separate high frequency unit would deliver
5000V, enough to fire the gap between the electrodes. As I went through various iterations of the design, I was nagged by the thought that even
though I was designing the circuit to be simple, most people would still not be able to duplicate it. I eventually ended up with the current design,
which is just some random bits of water pipe soldered together to form water-cooled electrodes. I even replaced the electromagnet design with a
simple and cheap ceramic ring magnet. Every time I was tempted to go out back and turn something on a lathe, I waited until I could figure out a way
to accomplish the same thing with hand tools and scrap bits.
The next phase is to introduce air flow into the reactor. I'm thinking tangential flow in the same direction as the arc rotation for starters. If
the arc remains stable, then some effort will be spent collecting the gas, and if necessary, shielding the exposed parts to prevent corrosion by the
product gasses.
Yes, I am going to school, but part time. I work full time in a research facility. Technically I'm a professional, but I'm an amateur at heart.
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Zombie
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Oh please Sir... Do not take any offense on your work. That is/ was by no means my intent. I'd shake your hand, and beg you to mentor me if we were
face to face. Hell maybe even adopt me...
No No No... I just joined here, and am learning. Part of that process (for me) is joining in on threads that I can understand, and hopefully
contribute to.
Odd thing about this thread... I live in a county of 2500 people, and can get these ingredients. BUT I would have to go 40 miles (each way) to get
those cold pills they make Meth from. Those are not available here.
Perhaps I came on too strong.
I very much admire the work both on this thread, and all through the forum.
Respect!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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WGTR
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Oh, I didn't take any personal offence, don't worry. In fact, I was busy typing my reply before your post came up, so I wasn't directly responding to
it. Certain attitudes get lost in the translation of the written word. Frankly, I was not the slightest bit annoyed or offended. I am naturally
intense, and tend to state things very thoroughly without realizing it. If you can reread the entire thing with more humour added, it might come out
more the way I intended it. Imagine if it was a trained squirrel that wrote it. Now imagine that Chuck Schumer is a trained squirrel.
At the same time, there are several threads here detailing how to get nitric acid from nitrates. It is pretty much the standard hobbyist way of
making nitric acid. The challenge in this thread, though, is to synthesise nitric acid from non-nitrate sources. As mentioned earlier in the thread,
there are valid reasons why people would want to do that. It would be nice if we don't stray too far from that in this thread.
[Edited on 1-30-2015 by WGTR]
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Zombie
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Understood.
I did see how the thread shifted from everyday to the exotic.
I'll put on my thinking cap, and keep the monkey away from the keyboard. Kudos!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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deltaH
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Very nice WGTR, loved the teaser trailer  This competition is
hotting up nicely, for a moment I thought it kinda fizzled, but it appears not. Anyhow, experience tells these kinds of things take a long time to
perfect and the goal here is no trivial matter!
I think in the end with the effort people are putting in, multiple routes will be made to work and that's really excellent because different solutions
may suit different people's backgrounds better.
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blogfast25
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WGTR:
Yours is the one to follow. That electrical arcs can combine nitrogen and oxygen into NO2 is well understood. In 1894 Argon was isolated by Lord
Rayleigh and Sir William Ramsay using that principle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argon#History
Connecting a flow of air through the arc into NO2 scrubber will be the really interesting next step.
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
I did see how the thread shifted from everyday to the exotic.
I'll put on my thinking cap, and keep the monkey away from the keyboard. Kudos! |
Define "exotic"?
And DO keep monkey away from keyboard or any semblance of a sane discussion.
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by blogfast25]
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Darkstar
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More like "novel."
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | Synthesis of Nitric Acid
(as proposed by WGTR)
Objective: Make at least 100ml of 30w% Nitric Acid in the easiest and cheapest way possible.
Prize €250 / $309 / £197 whatever the exchange rates are at the time
Reagents available:-
1. Any plants or rocks that you, or anybody else, can find in a 5 mile radius of your home.
2. Any product available from a supermarket.
3. Gasoline, Diesel, Vegetable Oils.
4. Common Bacteria or Fungii
5. Steel, Iron, Copper, Aluminium, Zinc ...
6. Anything an Animal ejects Voluntarily while living.
Prohibited Reagents: All chemicals that can be bought in their pure or pure-ish form. Nitric Acid in any form. Unicorn Extracts. Elf Dust/Leprechaun
Powder.
Equipment available: Standard glassware, any household item, or improvised item(s) made from household item(s).
Anything that a non-chemist would have access to, like a Spoon, Drill, hammer, lathe ...
Prohibited Equipment: Advanced Glassware (not normally available to a home chemist), quartz tube & furnace, Any Voltage > (250 * 1.41) V.
'Standard Glassware' is What i have in my lab.
That's the Definition.
U2U me if you think what you need to use might not be what i have in my lab.
The Ideal is to make a useful quantity of Nitric Acid in a way that we all could make it, and be shown/described in a way that others could copy.
As it's a DAC, Violation of that Ideal will disqualify an entry that fits the rules, yet is not of any Use at all to others.
Submissions should be ONE POST ONLY in this thread (edit as needed) and include photos that can be seen without following links, chemical formulae and
Amounts, and temperatures where relevant.
NOTE: the Single Post must show how it is done, in detail, so it can be copied, and verified.
Opening date : 1st January 2015.
DO NOT POST ENTRIES BEFORE THAT DATE.
Closing date for entries : 24th January 2015
The Winner will be the one who posts the Best overall solution, and i will take the opinions of others into account when judging.
Prize Winner(s) will be announced after Assessing, Judging and then Testing the procedures, likely before the end of Jan 2015.
The winner gets the stated Prize.
If any submissions look really great, and don't win, they could get a prize too.
All prizes paid by paypal.
As always, my inebriated word is final, unless it's not.
Edit:
Max Voltage changed to fit where i live as well (blush)
[Edited on 24-11-2014 by aga] |
By exotic I meant shifting from Mr. Aga's statement of "easiest, and cheapest way possible" into building apparatus to achieve his goal. No
disrespect.
I leashed the monkey...
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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aga
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Inspired by j_sum1 and WGTR's astounding efforts so far, i think i'll try and enter this competition myself.
Despite being fascinated with the spinny sparky thing, i bought 3 bags of dried beans.
How about heating a 3-neck flask with the beans in it, an aquarium air pump gently blowing air into 1 neck (stopper off the middle neck) and lead the
flow from the other neck through a copper tube, also heated, with the other end of the tube under water ?
Perhaps chuck some ammonia in the pot as well.
No, i have no idea what Chemistry i'm talking about, so i'll try it and see what happens.
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Loptr
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Here is a novel idea for the preparation of nitric acid for those lacking nitrate salts.
I will sell and ship sodium nitrate to anyone, anywhere, to allow them to produce nitric acid, either using sulfuric acid or the dry bisulfate
distillation method.
If you can't buy it locally, then have it sent to you!
Just kidding. I am not trying to get myself or anyone else in trouble
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Loptr
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My attempts at preparing minute amounts of dichoramine made me think twice, especially with risk of forming nitrogen trichloride. Yes, I know NCl3 can
be oxidized to HNO3, but just not worth it.
Also, I have redirected. I am attempting a micro-scale synthesis of HNO3 via the Ostwald process using Ammonia gas and hot copper wire, as seen at the
following page.
http://digipac.ca/chemical/mtom/contents/chapter3/fritzhaber...
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by Loptr]
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aga
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That's the kind of Thinking i was hoping for - Outside the Box !
Nice try, but no banana.
Edit:
I can confirm that approx 50ml 30% ammonia solution in a vac flask keeps a suspended ring of 15mm copper pipe at high heat for a long long time.
I didn't collect any gasses, or see any noticeable brown gas.
I suspect that the ammonia gas would need to be completely oxidised to prevent the formation of ammonium nitrate absorbing the desired HNO3.
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by aga]
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by aga]
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Loptr
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | That's the kind of Thinking i was hoping for - Outside the Box !
Nice try, but no banana.
Edit:
I can confirm that approx 50ml 30% ammonia solution in a vac flask keeps a suspended ring of 15mm copper pipe at high heat for a long long time.
I didn't collect any gasses, or see any noticeable brown gas.
I suspect that the ammonia gas would need to be completely oxidised to prevent the formation of ammonium nitrate absorbing the desired HNO3.
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by aga]
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by aga] |
Yeah, this has been something I have been thinking about. I was planning on using very dense copper wool stuffed into a horizontal connecting tube,
which one one side is connected to the dry ammonia gas source, and the other leading to a test tube filled with water. Eventually, the copper will
melt to the bottom of the connecting tube, which will allow ammonia gas to bypass the hot copper, and make it into the solution, which will form
ammonium nitrate. (ammonia would always make it through, but ammonium nitrate would start to become the dominant product in the receiving test tube as
the surface area of the copper decreased)
I think a way to determine how much NO2 can be produced before all the copper melts would be helpful in determining the amount of ammonia gas to
provide.
What about bubbling ammonia through a pool of molten copper? 
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by Loptr]
A quartz test tube might be able to contain molten copper. I am stepping outside my area of expertise, but copper melts at 1,085°C, whereas quartz
tube's max working temp is 1200°C. Maybe wrap the quartz test tube with resistance wire to melt the copper, and maintain it in a molten state that
way? Then figure out a way to bubble ammonia gas through the molten copper. Resistance wire could also be substituted with a propane torch.
This sounds dangerous, to say the least.
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by Loptr]
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by Loptr]
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by Loptr]
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aga
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Resistance is Futile (favourite Borg saying)
The main issue there would be the quartz tube, according to the rules.
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Loptr
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I believe you can buy a Quartz test tube off eBay for $25.
That's as off the shelf as any other glassware.
Besides, it's not the only container that could be used.
[Edited on 30-1-2015 by Loptr]
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