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gdflp
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Quote: Originally posted by zts16  | | How is OTC bleach alright but OTC ammonia isn't? They are about the same availability
wise, and can be purchased from the same stores. |
Because of this.
| Quote: Originally posted by gdflp | | Quote: Originally posted by aga |
Bleach, dunno, wavering to No as it's hard to make yourself, yet is widely available, so Yes ?
OK. Yes to 5~8% Bleach, unless there's somebody out there who actually cannot get any Bleach.
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It's not terribly difficult to make, electrolysis of a sodium chloride solution in a well designed cell yields sodium hypochlorite solutions.
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Big Boss
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Ammonia can be made extremely easily, much easier than NaClO. I have made it as a proof of concept, I will not however be making it on the scale that
is required to make 100ml of nitric acid. Also aga please check your supermarket for Ammonia bleach. It is fairly common.
Kept you waiting, huh?
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Little_Ghost_again
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Ok pics to follow tomorrow on progress so far, but I need a little help with something...................................
I have nitrates from poo!! shetland pony poo and other animals, since this started I have been picking up the poo and plonking it into a heap, it
tests positive for nitrates nitrites and ammonia using aquarium water test kit.
I have a cement mixer to make life easier but bucket and/or bath and plank of wood to stir would do as well, I just chose the mixer for speed. so I
now have poo to process with water and then filter into old bath tub. Let it settle and decant off liquid (nitrates). My problem then becomes what is
allowed within the rules to get from nitrates to nitric acid? I also have maggot ammonia (50ml).
I will post the pics tomorrow.
Dont ask me, I only know enough to be dangerous
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j_sum1
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Mmmm maggot ammonia! Sounds tasty.
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Little_Ghost_again
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seriously maggots make great ammonia! and loads of it! vermiculite is tops for collecting it (maggots crawl around in it) I found sawdust started to
convert the ammonia to nitrite and something else. 
Dont ask me, I only know enough to be dangerous
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aga
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Mmmm. Nitrites.
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Romain
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A youtube user (Cody'sLab) has had success with making nitric acid via a Birkeland-Eyde reactor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep23ds4cZs4. It sounds like an easy option, particularly if you have solar panels to generate electricity (because
electricity ends up costing a lot if your reactor runs 24/7).
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aga
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Voltage rule applies.
Big Zaps of kilovolts = already done (many decades ago) = not allowed.
How much you pay for your 'lectric doesn't really make any difference.
Perhaps people wanting HNO3 could look to Other routes, and not just those that Google serves up readily ?
It was not always like this.
There was a Time, not so long a go in a Galaxy not so far away where people Discovered things not by using the Internet or computers.
Shocking, i know - the Internet did not exist way back then, a full 35 years ago.
People back then Did Actual Stuff, which was called Experimentation.
Amazingly, despite the woeful lack of Internet or Computers, they discovered things, like the way the Universe works, such as Electricity, Magnetism,
the structure of DNA and Quantum Mechanics.
Whether this challenge is do-able or not, it'd be great to see people Doing things, as even a failed attempt to produce HNO3 by a NEW route
may well Discover something New that could be of great value to Science.
Prize fund Increased to 500 Euros.
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Little_Ghost_again
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I am waiting for the rain to stop at some point during daylight hours so I can post what i have so far. Its a great challenge and harder than it first
seems!
Dont ask me, I only know enough to be dangerous
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gdflp
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Is an aspirator or vacuum pump allowed? I have an idea and, while a vacuum is not technically needed, mechanical losses will otherwise be too high
for the process to be feasible.
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aga
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There's a vac pump in my lab, so that would be 'standard labware', so Yes.
In McGuyver World, some degree of vacuum could temporarily be rigged up with two containers of water and a hose, or with a hand-cranked pump too.
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kecskesajt
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Vacuum pump is too easy. I made by a buncher funnel(aviable in normal stores)a vitamine bottle,and a 100 ml syrenge.
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KesterDraconis
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Would it be ok in this challenge to get nitrates from a cave? I happen to go spelunking often, it would be pretty easy to get it there (since a lot of
caves in my area have it present in them).
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aga
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You can go collecting whatever you like.
What's the plan with the nitrates ?
Distill with conc sulphuric acid .... 
[Edited on 1-9-2015 by aga]
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Little_Ghost_again
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | You can go collecting whatever you like.
What's the plan with the nitrates ?
Distill with conc sulphuric acid ....
[Edited on 1-9-2015 by aga] |
According to the original rules if you made sulfuric acid via everyday chemicals or whatever then surely there is nothing wrong with that?
i know the electric methods etc and some of the 'new' ideas are great but they do kinda limit who could replicate them.
So quick clarification.............
Is it as per the second post of this thread or is it now a 'new' as yet undiscovered way to make nitric acid? I have my nitrates taken care of and now
I was going to go a very very OTC way about getting sulphuric acid from scratch, rather than buy something that contains it and purify that. in My
method I was going to try electrolysis of mag sulphate with copper anode to make copper sulphate, then go from copper sulphate to sulphuric acid.
So is this method in the rules or even in the spirit of the rules?
My source of nitrates has been very desert island (maggots and various animal poo etc etc) I have no idea exactly what nitrates are in it but its
reading very high on my nitrate test kit
Dont ask me, I only know enough to be dangerous
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aga
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Well, i dunno really.
Is it a competition to make Nitic acid by a New route, or a competition to make Sulphuric acid by a roundabout route that ends up beings used to
distill a nitrate equally obtained ?
Anyone else have any thoughts ?
If nothing else comes up that is more Novel, then you'd win i guess.
It is a DAC, so i'll have a few more beers and ask myself what i think (if anything).
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Little_Ghost_again
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I could have saved time and ran the exhaust from the tractor into water . I
havnt given up yet, I asked for clarity because my back up is carbon plates and mains electric to make ozone................
Get really drunk and have a think 
Dont ask me, I only know enough to be dangerous
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NWS
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So I have suffered a crippling setback. Apparently the apartment complex I'm staying in this semester frowns upon building laboratories (or even hot
things). In all seriousness, I will continue testing my hot copper pipe method in December (or possibly sooner if I have time off). I have all the
ingredients/parts/tools, all that is needed is to put it together and heat it up. I'm thoroughly interested/invested in this now, so if anyone
has/will/is thinking about trying it, updates will be greatly appreciated.
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NWS
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gatosgr
I just went through this step by step until I found the godawful, how-did-I-mess-up-this-bad error, so bear with me here.
18.02 g/mole*21 mole * 4.181 J/g*K =1582(H2O)
This is the thermal energy in the water vapor
30.01 g/mole*1 mole*0.995 KJ/Kg*K= 29.9(NO)
likewise for NO
1 mole * 37.5 J/Mole*K=37.5
and so on for each component of the exhaust gas
63.01 g/mole * 6 mole * 1.72 KJ/Kg *K= 650
1582+29.9+37.5+650=2.299 KJ/Kg
This is the total energy contained in the exhaust in Killo joules (There should be no Kg here)
4800/2.299=2087 Kelvin
This appears to be completely messed up, what should happen here is to divide the total amount of energy by the average specific heat capacity(SHC),
found by multiplying each particular gasses SHC by the number of moles that gas contributes to the exhaust and taking the sum.
However since one of the SHC's I found was in KJ/Mole*K I can't do this very easily, so I'm going to cheat and estimate the average as 4. This is
slightly less then the SHC of water, which would dominate the average.
This would give a (hopefully correct) ballpark of 600 K (minding sig figs)
This seems to be a much more reasonable answer so it's what I'm going to go with.
[Edited on 3-9-2015 by NWS]
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j_sum1
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@LGA
The great drunken one has already spoken in this matter although his wise words are somewhat unclear through the mist of ethanol vapours.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=48085#...
This suggests that the emphasis of the competition is a novel means for production of nitric acid. Although H2SO4 is not specifically excluded it
would perhaps be allowable if manufactured yourself.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=48085#...
This re-emphasises the spirit of the comp that a novel approach is required and that distillation of nitrates using sulfuric acid is somewhat outside
of the spirit of the competition.
My take on all of this. I think maggots and chicken excrement is certainly novel. This looks like a legitimate way of attaining nitrates if you can
get it to work. Once you have nitrates, you are onto a standardised route which may or may not be allowable if you are making your own H2SO4.
Forgive my vagueness on this detail. i can't quite read the last line of the chart through the bottom of my beer glass.
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aga
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Yeah.
It'd so much more Worth It if the winning process is not just Sulphuric & Nitrate being distilled.
Novel procedures for arriving at that point would also be good, so worthy of a prize i guess.
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WGTR
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Here's what I'd suggest: if someone wants to obtain nitrates from organic sources, why not go further with this, and ferment
the matter in a silage bag? "Silo gas" is a problem in the commercial world, and is an undesirable byproduct of ensiling
organic matter with high nitrate content. Observe this red cloud of beauty: http://www.cattlenetwork.com/news/silage-safety-begins-field .
You wouldn't even need to add other acids to obtain this; nitric acid would be produced directly from the silo gas. It may need
some purification though.
Work out the proper conditions to obtain the best yield. Perhaps supplement a grass fermentation with a little extra
nitrogenous "pony". Work out the optimal Dry Matter levels and temperature needed. How long does the fermentation take?
How much nitrate could be obtained from different parts of the grass? It might be useful to work out the fermentation process
using store-bought nitrates, until the bugs are worked out. Define the variables needed to make the process duplicable by
someone else, and document it well. Those are just my 2 cents.
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aga
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!!!
WGTR, that is the kinda thing this competition is all about.
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Little_Ghost_again
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| Quote: Originally posted by WGTR | Here's what I'd suggest: if someone wants to obtain nitrates from organic sources, why not go further with this, and ferment
the matter in a silage bag? "Silo gas" is a problem in the commercial world, and is an undesirable byproduct of ensiling
organic matter with high nitrate content. Observe this red cloud of beauty: http://www.cattlenetwork.com/news/silage-safety-begins-field .
You wouldn't even need to add other acids to obtain this; nitric acid would be produced directly from the silo gas. It may need
some purification though.
Work out the proper conditions to obtain the best yield. Perhaps supplement a grass fermentation with a little extra
nitrogenous "pony". Work out the optimal Dry Matter levels and temperature needed. How long does the fermentation take?
How much nitrate could be obtained from different parts of the grass? It might be useful to work out the fermentation process
using store-bought nitrates, until the bugs are worked out. Define the variables needed to make the process duplicable by
someone else, and document it well. Those are just my 2 cents. |
Hmmm this has given me an idea! thanks alot!
I was going to make the sulphuric but Fermentation of grass........
A bag is a long process, however I guess I could ferment grass in the lab as a trial
Dont ask me, I only know enough to be dangerous
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Hawkguy
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Dude it'll be easier to go all out with fermenting grass right away on a large scale, instead of wasting time on small trial runs. I'm finding out now
that it looks like about 1 to 2 years before much can be produced by this method on a reasonable scale.
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