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Author: Subject: Druken Aga Challenge (DAC) #3 - Closed (but open to discussion)
gdflp
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[*] posted on 18-8-2015 at 13:45


Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
Quote: Originally posted by aga  
OTC bleach is OK then.
How is OTC bleach alright but OTC ammonia isn't? They are about the same availability wise, and can be purchased from the same stores.

Because of this.
Quote: Originally posted by gdflp  
Quote: Originally posted by aga  

Bleach, dunno, wavering to No as it's hard to make yourself, yet is widely available, so Yes ?

OK. Yes to 5~8% Bleach, unless there's somebody out there who actually cannot get any Bleach.

It's not terribly difficult to make, electrolysis of a sodium chloride solution in a well designed cell yields sodium hypochlorite solutions.




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[*] posted on 18-8-2015 at 16:39


Ammonia can be made extremely easily, much easier than NaClO. I have made it as a proof of concept, I will not however be making it on the scale that is required to make 100ml of nitric acid. Also aga please check your supermarket for Ammonia bleach. It is fairly common.



Kept you waiting, huh?

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Little_Ghost_again
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[*] posted on 18-8-2015 at 18:05


Ok pics to follow tomorrow on progress so far, but I need a little help with something...................................

I have nitrates from poo!! shetland pony poo and other animals, since this started I have been picking up the poo and plonking it into a heap, it tests positive for nitrates nitrites and ammonia using aquarium water test kit.
I have a cement mixer to make life easier but bucket and/or bath and plank of wood to stir would do as well, I just chose the mixer for speed. so I now have poo to process with water and then filter into old bath tub. Let it settle and decant off liquid (nitrates). My problem then becomes what is allowed within the rules to get from nitrates to nitric acid? I also have maggot ammonia (50ml).
I will post the pics tomorrow.




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[*] posted on 18-8-2015 at 21:03


Mmmm maggot ammonia! Sounds tasty.
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Little_Ghost_again
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[*] posted on 19-8-2015 at 07:42


seriously maggots make great ammonia! and loads of it! vermiculite is tops for collecting it (maggots crawl around in it) I found sawdust started to convert the ammonia to nitrite and something else. :D



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[*] posted on 19-8-2015 at 08:56


Mmmm. Nitrites.



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[*] posted on 29-8-2015 at 07:15


A youtube user (Cody'sLab) has had success with making nitric acid via a Birkeland-Eyde reactor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep23ds4cZs4. It sounds like an easy option, particularly if you have solar panels to generate electricity (because electricity ends up costing a lot if your reactor runs 24/7).



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[*] posted on 29-8-2015 at 13:30


Voltage rule applies.

Big Zaps of kilovolts = already done (many decades ago) = not allowed.

How much you pay for your 'lectric doesn't really make any difference.

Perhaps people wanting HNO3 could look to Other routes, and not just those that Google serves up readily ?

It was not always like this.

There was a Time, not so long a go in a Galaxy not so far away where people Discovered things not by using the Internet or computers.

Shocking, i know - the Internet did not exist way back then, a full 35 years ago.

People back then Did Actual Stuff, which was called Experimentation.

Amazingly, despite the woeful lack of Internet or Computers, they discovered things, like the way the Universe works, such as Electricity, Magnetism, the structure of DNA and Quantum Mechanics.

Whether this challenge is do-able or not, it'd be great to see people Doing things, as even a failed attempt to produce HNO3 by a NEW route may well Discover something New that could be of great value to Science.

Prize fund Increased to 500 Euros.




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Little_Ghost_again
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[*] posted on 29-8-2015 at 15:03


I am waiting for the rain to stop at some point during daylight hours so I can post what i have so far. Its a great challenge and harder than it first seems!



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[*] posted on 29-8-2015 at 16:22


Is an aspirator or vacuum pump allowed? I have an idea and, while a vacuum is not technically needed, mechanical losses will otherwise be too high for the process to be feasible.



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[*] posted on 30-8-2015 at 01:08


There's a vac pump in my lab, so that would be 'standard labware', so Yes.

In McGuyver World, some degree of vacuum could temporarily be rigged up with two containers of water and a hose, or with a hand-cranked pump too.




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[*] posted on 30-8-2015 at 02:54


Vacuum pump is too easy. I made by a buncher funnel(aviable in normal stores)a vitamine bottle,and a 100 ml syrenge.
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[*] posted on 1-9-2015 at 06:31


Would it be ok in this challenge to get nitrates from a cave? I happen to go spelunking often, it would be pretty easy to get it there (since a lot of caves in my area have it present in them).
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[*] posted on 1-9-2015 at 08:24


You can go collecting whatever you like.

What's the plan with the nitrates ?
Distill with conc sulphuric acid .... :o

[Edited on 1-9-2015 by aga]




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[*] posted on 2-9-2015 at 01:29


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
You can go collecting whatever you like.

What's the plan with the nitrates ?
Distill with conc sulphuric acid .... :o

[Edited on 1-9-2015 by aga]


According to the original rules if you made sulfuric acid via everyday chemicals or whatever then surely there is nothing wrong with that?
i know the electric methods etc and some of the 'new' ideas are great but they do kinda limit who could replicate them.
So quick clarification.............
Is it as per the second post of this thread or is it now a 'new' as yet undiscovered way to make nitric acid? I have my nitrates taken care of and now I was going to go a very very OTC way about getting sulphuric acid from scratch, rather than buy something that contains it and purify that. in My method I was going to try electrolysis of mag sulphate with copper anode to make copper sulphate, then go from copper sulphate to sulphuric acid.
So is this method in the rules or even in the spirit of the rules?
My source of nitrates has been very desert island (maggots and various animal poo etc etc) I have no idea exactly what nitrates are in it but its reading very high on my nitrate test kit :D




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[*] posted on 2-9-2015 at 07:46


Well, i dunno really.

Is it a competition to make Nitic acid by a New route, or a competition to make Sulphuric acid by a roundabout route that ends up beings used to distill a nitrate equally obtained ?

Anyone else have any thoughts ?

If nothing else comes up that is more Novel, then you'd win i guess.

It is a DAC, so i'll have a few more beers and ask myself what i think (if anything).




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[*] posted on 2-9-2015 at 08:46


I could have saved time and ran the exhaust from the tractor into water :D. I havnt given up yet, I asked for clarity because my back up is carbon plates and mains electric to make ozone................

Get really drunk and have a think :P




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[*] posted on 2-9-2015 at 15:34


So I have suffered a crippling setback. Apparently the apartment complex I'm staying in this semester frowns upon building laboratories (or even hot things). In all seriousness, I will continue testing my hot copper pipe method in December (or possibly sooner if I have time off). I have all the ingredients/parts/tools, all that is needed is to put it together and heat it up. I'm thoroughly interested/invested in this now, so if anyone has/will/is thinking about trying it, updates will be greatly appreciated.
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[*] posted on 2-9-2015 at 16:01


gatosgr
I just went through this step by step until I found the godawful, how-did-I-mess-up-this-bad error, so bear with me here.
18.02 g/mole*21 mole * 4.181 J/g*K =1582(H2O)
This is the thermal energy in the water vapor

30.01 g/mole*1 mole*0.995 KJ/Kg*K= 29.9(NO)
likewise for NO
1 mole * 37.5 J/Mole*K=37.5
and so on for each component of the exhaust gas
63.01 g/mole * 6 mole * 1.72 KJ/Kg *K= 650

1582+29.9+37.5+650=2.299 KJ/Kg
This is the total energy contained in the exhaust in Killo joules (There should be no Kg here)

4800/2.299=2087 Kelvin
This appears to be completely messed up, what should happen here is to divide the total amount of energy by the average specific heat capacity(SHC), found by multiplying each particular gasses SHC by the number of moles that gas contributes to the exhaust and taking the sum.
However since one of the SHC's I found was in KJ/Mole*K I can't do this very easily, so I'm going to cheat and estimate the average as 4. This is slightly less then the SHC of water, which would dominate the average.
This would give a (hopefully correct) ballpark of 600 K (minding sig figs)
This seems to be a much more reasonable answer so it's what I'm going to go with.




[Edited on 3-9-2015 by NWS]
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[*] posted on 2-9-2015 at 16:37


@LGA
The great drunken one has already spoken in this matter although his wise words are somewhat unclear through the mist of ethanol vapours.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=48085#...
This suggests that the emphasis of the competition is a novel means for production of nitric acid. Although H2SO4 is not specifically excluded it would perhaps be allowable if manufactured yourself.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=48085#...
This re-emphasises the spirit of the comp that a novel approach is required and that distillation of nitrates using sulfuric acid is somewhat outside of the spirit of the competition.


My take on all of this. I think maggots and chicken excrement is certainly novel. This looks like a legitimate way of attaining nitrates if you can get it to work. Once you have nitrates, you are onto a standardised route which may or may not be allowable if you are making your own H2SO4. Forgive my vagueness on this detail. i can't quite read the last line of the chart through the bottom of my beer glass.
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[*] posted on 3-9-2015 at 10:57


Yeah.

It'd so much more Worth It if the winning process is not just Sulphuric & Nitrate being distilled.

Novel procedures for arriving at that point would also be good, so worthy of a prize i guess.




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[*] posted on 3-9-2015 at 13:09


Here's what I'd suggest: if someone wants to obtain nitrates from organic sources, why not go further with this, and ferment

the matter in a silage bag? "Silo gas" is a problem in the commercial world, and is an undesirable byproduct of ensiling

organic matter with high nitrate content. Observe this red cloud of beauty: http://www.cattlenetwork.com/news/silage-safety-begins-field .

You wouldn't even need to add other acids to obtain this; nitric acid would be produced directly from the silo gas. It may need

some purification though.


Work out the proper conditions to obtain the best yield. Perhaps supplement a grass fermentation with a little extra

nitrogenous "pony". Work out the optimal Dry Matter levels and temperature needed. How long does the fermentation take?

How much nitrate could be obtained from different parts of the grass? It might be useful to work out the fermentation process

using store-bought nitrates, until the bugs are worked out. Define the variables needed to make the process duplicable by

someone else, and document it well. Those are just my 2 cents.
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[*] posted on 3-9-2015 at 13:20


!!!

WGTR, that is the kinda thing this competition is all about.




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[*] posted on 3-9-2015 at 15:11


Quote: Originally posted by WGTR  
Here's what I'd suggest: if someone wants to obtain nitrates from organic sources, why not go further with this, and ferment

the matter in a silage bag? "Silo gas" is a problem in the commercial world, and is an undesirable byproduct of ensiling

organic matter with high nitrate content. Observe this red cloud of beauty: http://www.cattlenetwork.com/news/silage-safety-begins-field .

You wouldn't even need to add other acids to obtain this; nitric acid would be produced directly from the silo gas. It may need

some purification though.


Work out the proper conditions to obtain the best yield. Perhaps supplement a grass fermentation with a little extra

nitrogenous "pony". Work out the optimal Dry Matter levels and temperature needed. How long does the fermentation take?

How much nitrate could be obtained from different parts of the grass? It might be useful to work out the fermentation process

using store-bought nitrates, until the bugs are worked out. Define the variables needed to make the process duplicable by

someone else, and document it well. Those are just my 2 cents.

Hmmm this has given me an idea! thanks alot!
I was going to make the sulphuric but Fermentation of grass........
A bag is a long process, however I guess I could ferment grass in the lab as a trial :D




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[*] posted on 3-9-2015 at 17:44


Dude it'll be easier to go all out with fermenting grass right away on a large scale, instead of wasting time on small trial runs. I'm finding out now that it looks like about 1 to 2 years before much can be produced by this method on a reasonable scale.
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