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plante1999
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Quote: Originally posted by radiance88  | | There seems to be two sides here in this thread - those who think it can be done, and try (even if the yield is inefficient), and those who think that
it's impossible, and are persistent in telling us it's pointless for even trying for this goal. |
I think you missed it, there is the ones which think they can find a gold ring at the beach with sticks (a very unlikely possibility). And the one
that think if they wanted to look it would be way more practical to use a metal detector.
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aga
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... then there are those with dangerously little Knowledge, who failed to find the gold ring with the sticks and metal detector, and carried on
trying.
One of those still trying to find the ring, might, by pure chance, discover a functioning Field Technology.
Very far fetched, of course, but the fact remains that people actually Doing Stuff stumble upon all sorts of things, probably unrelated to what they
were trying to do.
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j_sum1
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If I don't find out how to make nitric acid, I will find out what I do and don't know.
I don't think I should have to defend that notion.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1 | If I don't find out how to make nitric acid, I will find out what I do and don't know.
I don't think I should have to defend that notion. |
Not in the slightest but its not a very effective way of conducting applied research.
Using low MM amines and amides as models and looking for catalysts that would improve NOx yield during their combustion would be more targeted, for
instance.
[Edited on 1-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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deltaH
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| Quote: | | Using low MM amines and amides as models and looking for catalysts that would improve NOx yield during their combustion would be more targeted, for
instance. |
This has been suggested, including using hexamine containing fuel tablets (my favorite), urea and melamine. Amides have not, though urea is
amide-like. Any ideas for OTC amides that could be useful for this? Ideally what you're burning should be easy to burn (something urea and melamine
are not) with a reasonable heat of combustion.
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blogfast25
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OTC amides: Nylon. One N for every six C.
[Edited on 1-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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No, this was the problem with most of the links I turned up before I ran across the term "fuel nitrogen" and started hitting somewhat more significant
information. I just felt it was a reasonable indication that burning nitrogen-containing compounds had a noticeable effect on NOx
generation.
Now that would have somebody kicking down my door. (Or! I'd get the whole neighborhood to myself for a while.) If I were going to attempt
this I'd either use one of the amino acids that are readily available in bulk, or straight soy protein since legumes seem to be under consideration.
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blogfast25
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Huh? Explain?
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gdflp
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The smell of cadaverine in addition to burning and vaporizing it, some neighbors might not appreciate it.
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deltaH
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by gdflp |
The smell of cadaverine in addition to burning and vaporizing it, some neighbors might not appreciate it. |
Boh. Depends on how you do things.
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aga
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Hmm. A Catalyst sounds great.
I've got Copper, so ill try that, hot.
Wife says NO to the use of her Platinum.
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blogfast25
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Jokes aside, if I had to put money on a catalyst that could help oxidise amines/amides in fairly 'normal' combustion conditions, I'd be thinking of a
transition metal oxide with oxidising properties like CuO, V2O5 or MnO2 (not an exhaustive list).
Catalyst would oxidise -NH2/-NH- to NO or NO2, itself being reduced to a lower oxidation state.
Air oxygen would regenerate the catalyst to its highest oxidation state.
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j_sum1
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Thanks for the thought blogfast. there is no reason why I can't add some battery gunk MnO2 to my experiment and see if that doesn't help things
along. There will be some iron oxides in there too as well in all likelihood. I will get rid of the ZnCl2 first though.
Selecting a catalyst is well outside my experience though. I have some CoO and NiO that I could try also, but that is getting beyond my third-world
otc approach possibly.
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deltaH
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Here's a present for you j_sum1, "Manganese in the catalytic oxidation of ammonia" full text available here:
https://archive.org/details/manganeseincatal00piggrich
Break a beaker
[Edited on 2-2-2015 by deltaH]
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blogfast25
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For this kind of heterogeneous catalysis a fluidised bed reactor would be ideal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidized_bed_reactor
[Edited on 2-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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hyfalcon
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Hey, my coffee roaster works on the same principle. Hmmm....
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blogfast25
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I warmly recommend delta's last link: it's practically a guide to build-your-own-nitric-acid-plant but quite OTC.
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deltaH
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Yes, I would say Charles Snowden Piggot has won this competition posthumously 95 years ago.
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blogfast25
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Right on the money, Delta.
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deltaH
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So sad to see the library stamps on the back page, only read twice in 1926 and 1928... very poignant 
Bert, please consider adding this 17-page gem to the SM library for archival purposes, lest it is lost.
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aga
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+1
definitely worth archiving/preserving.
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aga
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I had a fluidised bed once.
Never going to drink 16 pints ever ever again.
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deltaH
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Soak the soybeans with potassium permanganate solution then dry? The high temperatures during combustion should quickly decompose this to active MnO2
catalyst, might even form within the beans during soaking by organic reduction maybe.
****
I've been meaning to calculate this: according to the wiki on proteins, the average nitrogen content is typically around 16%. According to the wiki on
soybeans, the average protein is about 36.5%. That would make the average nitrogen content of soybeans 5.8%... a s@#t-load.
So 1kg of soybeans can theoretically produce a maximum of 263g of 100% HNO3 or 404g (291ml) of 65% HNO3, but I would be extremely impressed if one
achieved even 1/10 of that yield because of poor selectivity (for example forming N2 instead of NO during combustion and also failing to absorb the
flue NOx into the water completely).
Then again... we have super MnO2 cat now  and ice water should help a lot in
capturing dilute NOx gases.
[Edited on 2-2-2015 by deltaH]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | Soak the soybeans with potassium permanganate solution then dry? The high temperatures during combustion should quickly decompose this to active MnO2
catalyst, might even form within the beans during soaking by organic reduction maybe.
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Sillier ideas have made it big. I mean, glowing filaments from carbonised goats hair, what was that all about?
Wouldn't have to KMnO4 either: Mn sulphate or acetate with a bit of alkali would soon dry/oxidise to MnO2.
Other interesting substrate for similar treatment: urea prills.
[Edited on 2-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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