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grndpndr
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I posted a qoute by Gerald Hurst regarding tannerite (dec 06)
wher he basically described the tannerite as a well known flash composition niether a HE nor a deflagrating type explosive.
That Mr Tanner showing great IMHO grasp of salesmanship marketed the mix as a legal explosive target.FWIW But it is in fact a qoute though not a
direct qoute of Mr Hurst.
Why is Tannerite considered a binary given the # of chemicals it contains?AN/NM I can grasp,tannerite w/its #components..
And the apparent confusion surrounding tannerite as an AL/AN
mix just less AL than ammonal?
If or esteemed LEO shows at an innoportune time hope you have a letter from ATF or manufacturer of the device.Its not the arrest that will hurt your
likely to be released within hours
but getting back your confiscated firearms from the homo sapiens in blue may cost you beau coup (forever) time and money assuming the
"EVIDENCE" isnt lost by then. Fair warning
[Edited on 13-6-2010 by grndpndr]
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biomagir
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legality clarification wanted
I know i'm replying to a 3yr old discussion bumped by a spam prick but the quote below disturbed me...
Quote: Originally posted by grndpndr  |
If or esteemed LEO shows at an innoportune time...Its not the arrest that will hurt your likely to be released within hours
but getting back your confiscated firearms from the homo sapiens in blue may cost you beau coup (forever) time and money assuming the
"EVIDENCE" isnt lost by then. Fair warning
[Edited on 13-6-2010 by grndpndr] |
anyone with more knowledge care to comment how much power LEO would have, or what they could do, be it local state(Pa) or fed (which
i think i'm ok with since i follow orange book practices), for ex., its private rural property, houses spaced out 100yd+ apart... someone calls in
a noise complaint of "large explosions" (shooting binary target mixes, 300+yds from any house)... what can/may they do? i have a clear
record but am not into the hobby enough to apply for ATF license, its more state side i wonder about anyways since even bottle rockets can't be sold
to residents here. I assume my private property experiments are no one's business and the law is cool with that. And given that a stone quarry 2 miles
away rumbles the earth on occasion, i figure i'm in the clear doing what i do.
I'm doubtful of the quoted "warning"even applied to public property where shooting is allowed, but it still bothered me and I'd like to know more.
This is the USA, but ptriot-acted and now post sandy hook, i just imagine a distant neighbor gets "concerned" of repeated explosive noises and gun
shots, and, ya know..
I have no enemies around, and a neighbor about 500yds away is louder than me at times with fireworks and guns, it was like we were competing new years
eve who could make the most noise...
I imagine someone could exaggerate, get the attention of LE, maybe so they can feel like a jolly good citizen pointing fingers at possible "bad
activities"; I'm kinda new into this area, but much restricted in my interest, to flash targets (AN failed with 5% Al even with a 5.56, and no way i'm
paying tannerite prices, so i make my own small ones similar to thunder#3.)
[Edited on 11-1-2013 by biomagir]
[Edited on 11-1-2013 by biomagir]
Safety: instinctive behavior to the ideal person whose goal is to gain by research rather than strictly trial and error; rationality doesn't include
making or following blanket "don'ts!" statements without good reason.
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isobutane
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The easy to make version of tanerite is a 95:5 ratio of AN and Al.
That will be sensitive to a projectile going at 2300 fps or faster. That is also to mix that non-name brand tanertie.
The real mix is far less powerful then an:al. The oxidizer is a mix of 85% AN and 15% AP (ammonium perchlorate). The catalyst as they call it (i know
it is the fuel) is a mix of 90% fine all powder usually about 600 mesh or finer. 5% Ti sponge about 325 making it courser will make better sparks at
325 mesh it adds Ti color. The 5% could be anything from zirconium hydroxide to nicrome powder.
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Grantr
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Ammonal
Since Tannerite is so dang expensive I found out that fertilizer grade AN and German black Aluminum powder will do the same thing for a fraction of
the cost. Cost per pound is about 78 cents. 50 lbs of AN 34-0-0 is $17.
I have tired ratios of 95/5 97/3 and 99/1. All detonate however 97/3 seems to be the stronger one being shot with 223 and 308 rifles. 85/15 and 90/10
did not detonate being shot they just sort of poped and burned. Grinding the An seems to make is stronger however a 7.5 pound finely ground target did
not go off with a 308. Setting a 1/4 pound target by it did make the charge go off.
I have also tried setting of 94/6 ANFO with 1/4 pound 97/3 Ammonal charges. So have made some impressive booms however it is hit and miss if they go
off well. All of these charges are unconfined in zip lock bags.
What does grinding the ammonium nitrate do exactly? Make the charge denser and harder to set off but stronger? IS there an idea mix ratio for the
strongest explosion?
I guess explosives are like drugs. You start wanting to chase the dragon. I have my eyes set on making some ETN. I want a loud sharper bang and
something I can possible split so old stumps with.
Grant
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greenlight
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I have always heard ratios should be around 95:5 AN/Al but have never experimented with AMMONAL.
It isn't oxygen balanced and that what makes it more sensitive I think and what causes the large cloud of decomposition product that can be seen when
it is detonated.
Since it is just a fuel/oxidizer mix, grinding more finely would create a more intimate mixture between the two and the smaller particles would react
faster and be more sensitive to impact.
Increasing the charge density would get an increased VOD compared to just loose in a zip lock bag but I am unsure how it would affect impact from a
bullet.
The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
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ecos
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I am sure there are stronger mixtures for AN. search for aluminized ANFO.
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Brom
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Anyone looking for explosive grade low density micro pill Ammonium nitrate for tannerite contact me. Not agricultural grade, no contaminants, just
clean small Prills. No need for grinding. Made to use as prills for fuel absorption. Great prices and shipping is not a problem as it is with nitric
acid and chems like those. This stuff puts tannerite brand to shame and is complety legal.
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Brom
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I have never had a charge not detonate with .243 and .308 and I'm sure my ar-15 would do it I just prefer using accurate bolt action rifles for that
so I can get a good distance between this stuff. It is POWERFUL. It only took 1.9 pounds to do this to this old heavy, large and increadably hard
tree. I was impressed
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Bert
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| Quote: |
What does grinding the ammonium nitrate do exactly? Make the charge denser and harder to set off but stronger? IS there an idea mix ratio for the
strongest explosion?
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Google is your friend. Lots of information on the need for airspaces to propagate the detonation in this type of mixture.
So many existing AN, ANAL and AMONAL threads. So many "Tannerite" threads. Let's make the job a little easier for the next person who actually tries
to search for his answers on such topics... By merging this thread into one of those many, many already existing related threads.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
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2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Bert
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Threads Merged
9-12-2015 at 08:41 |
NedsHead
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bert |
Google is your friend. Lots of information on the need for airspaces to propagate the detonation in this type of mixture. |
I wish I had come across this comment earlier, I spent quite a bit of time synthesizing approx 240g of ammonium nitrate for the purpose of making
Tannerite, and after many hours travel to a remote location I mixed in a zip lock bag the finely powdered ammonium nitrate with 5% 45 micron Aluminium
powder and bound the bag of Tannerite as tightly as I could in duct tape and placed it in the fork of a tree,
at the time my reasoning was (more dense = more better) but to my surprise a 69gn hot load fired from my .223 rifle @ approx 100yds achieved nothing
except to blow all the Tannerite out the exit hole and spill it all over the ground.
now that I have an idea what went wrong I'll try again but this time I won't pack the Tannerite so bloody tight.
Video of said failure
https://youtu.be/oDydjUr5Bmg
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Bert
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Tannerite uses prills, rather than finely ground ammonium nitrate. These don't pack very tightly- Grinding the AN very fine is counter productive if
you are after bullet sensitivity. Tannerite will settle on long standing or if jolted and vibrated in handling, once the stuff gets too compacted, it
often fails.
Do some more searching on the use of plastic or glass microballoons/incorporation of air bubbles. Some AN based commercial blasting explosives use
these techniques to increase sensitivity.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
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3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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NedsHead
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Thanks Bert, not having access to prilled ammonium nitrate means I have to synth my own and I end up with a mix of coarse (easily broken) and fine
ammonium nitrate, at that time I thought it would be better to grind it all to the same consistency. Thanks for your advice,
I'll research my options of what I can add to my nitrate to incorporate air into the mix.
NedsHead
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Bert
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If you are interested in reactive targets, this link may be of interest:
http://www.boomershoot.org/general/reactive.htm
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
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3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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NedsHead
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Awesome, I have it bookmarked to read in my spare time later tonight,
cheers
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Bert
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It seems that the more people buy and use these reactive target mixtures, the more really bad ideas about what to do with them occur to the "hard of
thinking". The bad PR fallout from the resulting deaths, injuries, property damages and pissed off neighbors affects others in the EM and weapons
related hobbies.
I wanted to place an explosives magazine in the same county where the idiot felon (barred from owning/using firearms) shot a huge charge in a dump
truck box with a .50 BMG rifle. And set off the seismic alarms at the nearby nuclear power plant...
This happened right before a township review for conditional use permit and zoning for our business. It had NO relationship to what we wanted to do,
but all the locals had their panties twisted in a knot over the thought of explosives being in their area. It definitely poisoned the atmosphere, and
we ended up doing our business in a different county. (Same township had multiple silos and storage sheds full of agricultural AN, but farmers
understand THAT!)
https://newrepublic.com/article/126232/gun-cultures-dazzling...
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
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3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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NedsHead
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I had some time to revisit Tannerite on the weekend and made some 100g batches, this time I left it loose in a container and it readily detonated when
hit with a 69gn bullet from my .223 Sako https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOWU6nQiPqc. The 100g of Tannerite disintegrated the house brick and bucket I placed it on, very impressive stuff
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James Ikanov
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I'm rather curious about this, and it's closely related, so quick question.
Wiki suggests that ammonal ranges from 95:5 (AN/Al) to 99:1 (AN/Al), and that more Aluminum is more sensitivity, and that the 99:1 mixture is "more
sensitive than C-4 or TNT". This is however, rather vague. Is there an index point or comparable compound someone could give for how sensitive such
materials really are?
“To do good work one must eat well, be well housed, have one's fling from time to time, smoke one's pipe, and drink one's coffee in peace” -
Vincent Van Gogh
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Detonationology
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TNT and C-4 are not explosive to the touch of a match, meaning that detonation is only possible when a blasting cap is used to begin the initial
propagation wave that causes the compound detonation chain reaction to begin. AN is very known for its sensitivity, ESPECIALLY when contaminated.
Nitrated compounds tend to be much more resilient at higher temperatures compared to AN, which becomes dangerously unstable to the point of
self-oxidation, meaning it acts as both the fuel and the oxidizer.
You can hypothetically burn logs of RDX, TNT, ETN, nitrocellulose, etc. all day long over a campfire, and will not explode unless an initial
propagation wave is applied, which may require less energy at elevated temperatures. In the case of tannerite, the initial propagation wave is
generated by a high velocity bullet.
Blasting gelatin is a mixture of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin. When ignited with an ordinary flame, the mixture burns very rapidly and
violently-- only a deflagration.
When a blasting cap is used to generate the initial propagation wave in blasting gelatin, the mixture detonates at ~8000m/s.
[Edited on 2-17-2016 by Detonationology]
“There are no differences but differences of degree between different degrees of difference and no difference.” ― William James
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NedsHead
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For anybody interested here is some better footage of the Tannerite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln_KWL5cSaI
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Hennig Brand
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| Quote: Originally posted by Detonationology | TNT and C-4 are not explosive to the touch of a match, meaning that detonation is only possible when a blasting cap is used to begin the initial
propagation wave that causes the compound detonation chain reaction to begin. AN is very known for its sensitivity, ESPECIALLY when contaminated.
Nitrated compounds tend to be much more resilient at higher temperatures compared to AN, which becomes dangerously unstable to the point of
self-oxidation, meaning it acts as both the fuel and the oxidizer.
You can hypothetically burn logs of RDX, TNT, ETN, nitrocellulose, etc. all day long over a campfire, and will not explode unless an initial
propagation wave is applied, which may require less energy at elevated temperatures. In the case of tannerite, the initial propagation wave is
generated by a high velocity bullet.
Blasting gelatin is a mixture of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin. When ignited with an ordinary flame, the mixture burns very rapidly and
violently-- only a deflagration.
When a blasting cap is used to generate the initial propagation wave in blasting gelatin, the mixture detonates at ~8000m/s.
[Edited on 2-17-2016 by Detonationology] |
The logs of ETN or NC (especially if highly nitrated NC and in fibrous form) are almost definitely going to explode, high order or not I don't want to
be standing nearby when those are thrown on the fire. Any explosion, detonation or not, with anything approaching large quantities of these materials
would be very bad for anyone or anything else delicate close by.
Local overheating with confinement could make deflagration possible with RDX and possibly TNT as well. TNT is likely the safest and least likely to
respond in this respect, except for the toxic fumes you might be fine.  A log of
either of these tossed on a hot bed of coals could possibly provide the localized heating and confinement necessary for a deflagration.
Not my idea of a relaxing camping trip!
| Quote: Originally posted by James Ikanov | I'm rather curious about this, and it's closely related, so quick question.
Wiki suggests that ammonal ranges from 95:5 (AN/Al) to 99:1 (AN/Al), and that more Aluminum is more sensitivity, and that the 99:1 mixture is "more
sensitive than C-4 or TNT". This is however, rather vague. Is there an index point or comparable compound someone could give for how sensitive such
materials really are? |
Not sure I know how to give you a perfect answer, but I can give you a couple bits of information. C-4 and TNT are both military explosives and as
such they are specifically chosen to be resistant to the impact from a bullet (shockwave from a super sonic rifle bullet). AN/Al on the other hand is
much more sensitive to initiation from shock and at least some of its mixtures can be easily set of by rifle bullet. BTW, C-4 and TNT also require
much more powerful blasting caps as well, for the same reason.
[Edited on 17-2-2016 by Hennig Brand]
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Detonationology
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| Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand | | Not sure I know how to give you a perfect answer, but I can give you a couple bits of information. C-4 and TNT are both military explosives and as
such they are specifically chosen to be resistant to the impact from a bullet (shockwave from a super sonic rifle bullet). AN/Al on the other hand is
much more sensitive to initiation from shock and at least some of its mixtures can be easily set of by rifle bullet. BTW, C-4 and TNT also require
much more powerful blasting caps as well, for the same reason. |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUFSR2zTo7c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQzil8fHEVM
[Edited on 2-17-2016 by Detonationology]
“There are no differences but differences of degree between different degrees of difference and no difference.” ― William James
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James Ikanov
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I think my question has been misunderstood, perhaps due to poor phrasing, but thank you for the informative responses. I was more asking along the
lines of what the more sensitive mixtures could be compared to in terms of another explosive of similar sensitivity, or in other words, what might be
comparable to a 95:5 mixture?
“To do good work one must eat well, be well housed, have one's fling from time to time, smoke one's pipe, and drink one's coffee in peace” -
Vincent Van Gogh
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Bert
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Drop hammer, friction shoe, Lead block test... Not published for Tannerite, AFAIK. It shoots at a very low velocity, but is also more sensitive to
impact than any military or most commercial explosives I know of.
Go do some tests? Science!
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Hennig Brand
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Of the four explosives you mentioned RDX and TNT are the safest to burn, from what I have seen and read. However, the video you linked to shows C-4
being burned, not pure RDX, which is completely different. While I think you are probably right about TNT being nearly impossible to detonate by
burning in the open, in that video some hot coals were simply set on top of a pile of loose TNT which would not provide anywhere near the localized
heating or confinement of a log of TNT being placed on top of a hot bed of coals. There would be much more confinement again if logs of wood, also on
the bed of coals, were up against the explosive. Heat rises, and so does temperature if the heat is not allowed to dissipate freely!
BTW, I think you quoted the wrong part of my post, but I know what you meant.
[Edited on 18-2-2016 by Hennig Brand]
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Detonationology
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C-4 is 91% RDX... It couldn't possible be that much different than pure RDX.
“There are no differences but differences of degree between different degrees of difference and no difference.” ― William James
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