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The Volatile Chemist
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Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  | | I assume it does, yes. I meant "less than lethal", not "less than toxic" BTW. The cytochrome c oxidase is quickly replaced, cyanide becomes lethal
when cytochrome c oxidase is used up too fast for it to be replaced in time and too many cells die from inability to produce ATP.
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I see. But if the dose was localized in a non-fatal area, it would kill the cells in the area.
Anyways, I've been [accidentally  ] derailing threads all of today...
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Molecular Manipulations
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I'm not sure if a dose can be localized. I think it would spread out evenly. Except perhaps in the case of injection, where it might bind to all of
the local cytochrome c oxidases before diffusing very much into the bloodstream.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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chornedsnorkack
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| Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations | | I'm not sure if a dose can be localized. I think it would spread out evenly. Except perhaps in the case of injection, where it might bind to all of
the local cytochrome c oxidases before diffusing very much into the bloodstream. |
Obviously cyanide being tasted is localized in mouth and saliva for a time. And then has to diffuse somehow to bloodstream, either through mouth or
having been swallowed, through entrails.
Is cyanide absorbed well through tongue? And does a less than fatal dose of cyanide cause any localized damage to the cells of tongue and/or stomach,
through which it is absorbed into bloodstream?
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chornedsnorkack
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Also: competitive inhibitors of cytochrome c oxidase include besides cyanide also carbon monoxide, azide, sulphide and formic acid. Which of these is
most dangerous?
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Molecular Manipulations
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| Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack |
Obviously cyanide being tasted is localized in mouth and saliva for a time. And then has to diffuse somehow to bloodstream, either through mouth or
having been swallowed, through entrails.
Is cyanide absorbed well through tongue? And does a less than fatal dose of cyanide cause any localized damage to the cells of tongue and/or stomach,
through which it is absorbed into bloodstream? |
That's my point, sort of. Cyanide is only toxic to cytochrome c oxidase, which is in the blood stream, so I can't see how it could cause local damage
to tongue cells, except in the blood stream of said tongue, where it would move throughout the body quite quickly, about 90% of your blood is
completely circulated in about one minute. Also I doubt cyanide is absorbed in the bloodstream from the tongue.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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The Volatile Chemist
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| Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations | | Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack |
Obviously cyanide being tasted is localized in mouth and saliva for a time. And then has to diffuse somehow to bloodstream, either through mouth or
having been swallowed, through entrails.
Is cyanide absorbed well through tongue? And does a less than fatal dose of cyanide cause any localized damage to the cells of tongue and/or stomach,
through which it is absorbed into bloodstream? |
That's my point, sort of. Cyanide is only toxic to cytochrome c oxidase, which is in the blood stream, so I can't see how it could cause local damage
to tongue cells, except in the blood stream of said tongue, where it would move throughout the body quite quickly, about 90% of your blood is
completely circulated in about one minute. Also I doubt cyanide is absorbed in the bloodstream from the tongue. |
I guess so. Though I don't see why the tongue cells wouldn't absorb it, it's a pretty small ion. Also, it's reported that it gives a burning sensation
in the back of the throat (And Then There Were None, by Agatha Christie)
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chornedsnorkack
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| Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist | | Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations | | Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack |
Obviously cyanide being tasted is localized in mouth and saliva for a time. And then has to diffuse somehow to bloodstream, either through mouth or
having been swallowed, through entrails.
Is cyanide absorbed well through tongue? And does a less than fatal dose of cyanide cause any localized damage to the cells of tongue and/or stomach,
through which it is absorbed into bloodstream? |
That's my point, sort of. Cyanide is only toxic to cytochrome c oxidase, which is in the blood stream, so I can't see how it could cause local damage
to tongue cells, except in the blood stream of said tongue, where it would move throughout the body quite quickly, about 90% of your blood is
completely circulated in about one minute. Also I doubt cyanide is absorbed in the bloodstream from the tongue. |
I guess so. Though I don't see why the tongue cells wouldn't absorb it, it's a pretty small ion. Also, it's reported that it gives a burning sensation
in the back of the throat (And Then There Were None, by Agatha Christie) |
Ask it this way: to affect tongue cells is a very different thing from damaging them! Example, brain: lack of blood flow to brain causes faintness in
3-5 seconds, unconsciousness in 10-15 seconds... yet permanent brain damage and death take 2 minutes or more.
So: are below-fatal amounts of cyanide likely to cause local feeling in tongue cells, which passes over as the cyanide is eliminated by spreading it
around the body with bloodstream and conversion into thiocyanate, and the inhibited cytochrome c oxidase is recovered or replaced before the
tongue/throat cells sustain any permanent damage?
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The Volatile Chemist
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You're right, of course. And the CN- doesn't have to be absorbed to be tasted.
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learningChem
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I tried oxalic acid. Tasted like lemon to me.
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chornedsnorkack
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Yes, but is there any difference between the taste of citric acid and oxalic acid, with concentrations adjusted so as to measure an equal pH?
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Amos
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Funnily enough, potassium hydrogen oxalate was once called "salt of lemon".
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learningChem
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Ha. Interesting. So I wasn't that far off the mark apparently.
As to how it compares to citric acid, I can't tell since I haven't tried pure citric acid.
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Pasrules
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To all those guys worrying about the chemistry before tasting hydrogen cyanide i'll give you the quick answer it tastes how it smells which is
roasted/charred almonds
Atropine, Bicarb, Calcium.
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ave369
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Recently, I've accidentally tasted potassium bisulfate. It is very sour, extremely sour, but not burningly so. Very similar to citric acid, but
stronger (I've tasted pure food grade citric acid and even tried to eat a sandwich with it, lol). Of course, I went all spitty-spit right after I felt
the taste, so maybe I just wasn't exposed enough for it to burn my mouth.
[Edited on 19-10-2015 by ave369]
Smells like ammonia....
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MeshPL
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Not sure, but in 1984 G. Orwell described bad-tasting gin as having a taste of nitric acid.
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aga
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Tasting chemicals is a BAD idea.
You'll tittilate , damage or kill yourself and not glean any Useful information about the thing you're tasting.
Spend the Time making some $ instead and buy a GC, MS, NMR etc machine.
Wierdos. And you're not even properly drunk.
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The Volatile Chemist
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haha, way to make light of it. I'm a 'super-taster', I'm fairly certain. Too bad the ptc test strips come in 100 packs... 
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chloric1
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Carl Scheele
The famous chemist Carl Scheel tasted most of his preparations. We should create the Scheele Tasting Guild in his honor.
[Edited on 12/14/2015 by chloric1]
Fellow molecular manipulator
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ave369
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| Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack | | Also: competitive inhibitors of cytochrome c oxidase include besides cyanide also carbon monoxide, azide, sulphide and formic acid. Which of these is
most dangerous? |
Azide, I think. No known antidotes. Against cyanides, sulfides and carbon monoxide there is the general purpose antidote methylene blue and specific
antidotes like acyzol (the Russian anti-monoxide). Against azides, none of there work.
And formic acid, being an mid-strength acid, can only covertly (without a tell-tale blister) enter organism as methanol. And agaist this, the antidote
is ethanol.
Smells like ammonia....
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The Volatile Chemist
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Some fine antidotes I think there's a rather complex ethanol antidote, but
before this was discovered, supposedly the antidote to drunken-ness was more alcohol...{cite:'Bob' on usenet://sci.chem, yarchive}
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Mabus
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Not an acid, but I tasted with the tip of my tongue an aluminium sulfate tablet a few weeks ago. It tasted more like battery acid than salt, guess it
hydrolyzes pretty quickly.
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The Volatile Chemist
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I oft accidentally inhale an extremely small portion of anhydrous CuSO4 as it is an extremely fine powder. Nasty, tastes like fine sand.
Hydrated CuSO4 tastes bitter, I used to be reckless with my prep of basic copper(II) carbonate two summers ago and eat lunch after mixing
some up.
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ave369
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I've found a Youtube video of a Russian-speaking MORON who tasted HF (the moron survived, so no Darwin award here). He describes it as "like tasting
hot vinegar".
Smells like ammonia....
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Dan Vizine
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| Quote: Originally posted by jsc | In the old days using taste was considered a standard method in chemistry and students were taught to taste chemicals as part of their analysis.
Within reason, this method can still be used, assuming precautions are taken.
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I couldn't agree more. There are very few acids that I'd wouldn't taste if suitably diluted. You can detect the taste very tiny amounts of acids quite
easily and safely. Including HCN. I might shy away from acids based on selenium, thallium and tellurium. Or some weird biological toxin that happened
to be acidic.
The Golden Book of Chemistry had an experiment where you performed successive dilutions of H2SO4 and NaOH and tasted them. I did this 50 years ago, I
guess.
My former boss worked at DuPont a long, long time ago (when they did this kind of thing)....he mouth pipetted HCN soln, goofed and you know the
rest...got a mouthful. In my youthful astonishment I asked him "What did you do?!!"...he deadpanned "I spit it out". You can probably taste it at a
couple % of a hazardous dose.
"All Your Children Are Poor Unfortunate Victims of Lies You Believe, a Plague Upon Your Ignorance that Keeps the Youth from the Truth They
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DrP
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| Quote: Originally posted by ave369 | | I've found a Youtube video of a Russian-speaking MORON who tasted HF (the moron survived, so no Darwin award here). He describes it as "like tasting
hot vinegar". |
I don't know why, but I've always imagined it to taste kind of teflony.
Would I try it?... err.... No! lol. I suppose in a dilute enough amount it wouldn't do too much damage... That Russian survived. Was there any
lasting damage to him?
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generation\" - Eric Cartman
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