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Author: Subject: Ayahuasca psychedelic tested for depression
cyanureeves
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[*] posted on 8-4-2015 at 18:33


zombie i might try a tiny bit next time and not go for the abuse thing in my smoking and i do believe i will get the same end results.just intuition also and also no big words because i had to google mercurial.when i take one big hit all kinds of elfs.aztec gods in color etc.. come out ,BUT when i then go for a second high something strange happens.i see all visuals except in my brain i get locked in a loop and start to panic because i feel like i am trapped in a millenium.it appears like i am reliving a book story that has been played out over and over for centuries and i can only live it out.something occurs in the lobe where deja vu is played out.the place where information received from hearing and seeing is transmitted to the perception part of the brain and processed back as confirmed info.during this transmitting there is a delay and messages that have already been received gets processed again creating deja vu.i heard johnny carson describe deja vu this way on the tonight show and johnny never lied.this chemical also is like acid in which one builds tolerance because i have to smoke within minutes of each hit or else i will not see hardly zip.this tells me in can be used as an antidepressant one day because they have at least these similarities, not the creepy loopy thing.oh my lawd i think i just described an instant "flash back?" not good!

[Edited on 4-9-2015 by cyanureeves]
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[*] posted on 8-4-2015 at 18:37


Quote:

All of the compounds you mentioned in your posts Solo contain stimulants.


.....i just provide the reading stuff, each person decides what they consume, my effort is to provide the information for the reader to make an informed choice as to the drug he /she might indulge in .....also, as someone pointed out many of this studies are not controlled, hence the findings may not be as one sided as they conclude.....so stay with the natural stuff or make your own ....solo




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[*] posted on 8-4-2015 at 20:33


While both of Solo's articles contain information on stimulants, some of the compounds are psychedelic, both as chemically substituted amphetamines and simple indoleamine/substituted tryptamine compounds, and the implications are broader than for just stimulant drugs as there are even some examples of dissociative NMDA antagonists with CNS depressant activity.

Solo, I do want to say I have always appreciated your promulgation of scientific literature as paywalls annoy me, even in the cases they don't apply to me.

I do think it's important to note that there is still risk with synthesizing your own own chemicals for the purpose of ingestion as it is virtually impossible for an individual to maintain the quality control inherent in current Good Manufacturing Practice, and that natural substances aren't inherently any less dangerous than synthetically produced, though they may prove so in circumstances such as those being discussed.

Some possibly interesting examples of PTSD medication results often double blinded placebo controlled, for kicks and giggles. Lots of investigation in that area.
http://www.onu.edu/node/27553
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/288154-medication
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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 05:27


Maybe I've missed the point of this discussion, and if so I apologize for derailing, but here goes :

Regarding N,N-DMT and psycho-pharmacology, surely one cannot go without mentioning the work of Rick Strassman, specifically his book "The Spirit Molecule".

If anyone would like a copy of the documentary of the same name, I am willing to upload it to a file hosting service, just u2u me or post here to let me know, and I'll upload it and reply with the link.



[Edited on 10-4-2015 by MrBlank1]





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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 06:03


Reference Information


DMT: the spirit molecule: a doctor's revolutionary research into the biology of near-death and mystical experiences
Rick Strassman MD





[Edited on 10-4-2015 by solo]

Attachment: DMT_the_spirit_molecule.pdf (3.3MB)
This file has been downloaded 492 times





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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 08:08



The Spirit Molecule 2010 (699 mb, 1:13:46, 640x352) - Hosted on Uploaded.net

http://ul.to/htk7ti0x





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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 09:55


Psychedelic Information Theory
http://www.amazon.com/Psychedelic-Information-Theory-Shamani...

I found this as an interesting read, especially with my work with automata-based information processing systems. It takes the psychedelic experience and starts to break it down in terms of systems, system interactions, and the balance needed in order for them to work optimally. You skew the balance, and weird things start to happen.

It's been a few years since I read it. You will read about dynamical information processing systems, which isn't a typo, and is actually based on a theory aptly named dynamical systems theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamical_system).

For the more chemistry and biology inclined, it might be deemed rubbish, but the overall theory was very interesting to me from a perspective of how do you build such a system in terms of software.

[Edited on 10-4-2015 by Loptr]
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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 10:58


Here is the documentary on YouTube... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewdWBHh8hY8 (The Spirit Molecule)

I have been reading / studying EEG (Electroencephalography), and MRI (Magnetic resonance imaging) results of people under the influence of N N-DMT for comparators.
The issue I have with all the testing I can find is the same as the issue I have with the entire conversation about the compound.
The tests are all run during moderate to high dosages.
I have not (to date) found any tests run at low dosages.

That being what it is... There are consistent test results in both genres.

This could get long winded so I will try to keep it brief.

Taking the most commonly read frequencies in EEG testing, (Delta- Theta -Alpha- Beta- Gamma- Mu) The EEG test consistently show:

Delta, Normally low activity is increased w/ DMT

Theta, Normally low activity is Not increased w/ DMT

Alpha, Normally low activity is decreased w/ DMT

Beta, Normally high activity is decreased w/ DMT

Gamma, Normally high activity is decreased w/ DMT

Mu, Normally low activity is increased w/ DMT

To put these results into context,
Mu is rest-state motor neurons. They are read when a person is at rest

Gamma is cross-modal sensory processing (perception that combines two different senses, such as sound and sight).

Beta is active thinking, focus, hi alert, anxious.

Alpha is associated with inhibition control, relaxing, deep calm thought.

Theta is found to spike in situations where a person is actively trying to repress a response or action or in drowsy adults attempting to fight off sleep.

Delta is found during boring tasks, light sleep.

The main commonality is the higher functions are decreased, and the lower functions are increased.
In essence you can say that N N-DMT is flattening the brain wave graph or balancing the electrical activity to a flatter curve.

This is where I am focusing. What exactly does this "flattened curve" do?

Is it better for us? Is it worse?

My thoughts are it is better to have a balance. This really does apply in almost everything in nature. Too much of any one thing is always bad. Same for too little of any one thing.

My thought is combining low dose amounts of many of the compounds listed as Class One Drugs, along with other compounds that are indeed healthy, into sort of a multi-vitamin for the brain.

We all know those "good days" where the flipping house could burn down, and you just couldn't care less. The days where you know everything will be taken care of, and there is NO reason to get upset.
Those are the days you are in balance. Now imagine a tablet that will allow this to be everyday.

Some of you will come back with reality on this ie: Govt:, unknown effects, poison, propaganda, ect... but the reality is... It can be done. WE can do anything.



[Edited on 4-10-2015 by Zombie]




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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 12:09


It's important to remember that nearly anything can be said in a book or a movie regardless of the burden of evidence as these have no peer review. If any of you are interested in neuroscience, I could recommend some classic texts. From Neuron to Brain and Kandel's Principles of Neuroscience are both great starting points. Unfortunately, our current ability to model neural systems is very, very crude.
It's also important to specify fMRI in some MRI studies. Great tool, but there are quirks to dealing with them; enter the Dead Salmon Study.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/scicurious-brain/2012/09...
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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 13:40


I appreciate the direction Chemosynthesis.

I would have provided some citation to what I posted but I can not find the links at the moment.
What I have seen so far are models of the brain maps compiled from many studies.

Sort of an overlay of the results. I can't even remember the terminology used.

Basically what I am finding is base line brain activity is more or less consistent, and predictable in study groups. You see colored areas similar to thermal imaging where a color denotes the level of activity.
They then compare the same size sample groups to other drugs, and stimuli. These "maps" are again predictable.

The promising aspect (IMHO) is the fact that none of the "maps" are as balanced as the N N-DMT maps.

Inactive areas of the brain become active, while hyperactive areas lower in intensity.

I'm fairly certain it was in an article by Andrew Newberg that I found the images, and this information...

If this thread continues I will keep trying to find the links. I have hundreds of them to sort thru, and I'm not much for a "system" to keep it in order.

I'll look for the books you mentioned. Thank you!




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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 17:34


So I'm not a stoner or a drug taker, user, whatever... I can't really say much about counter-culture, philosophy, or spirituality with stuff like this. I personally believe if someone wants to do something with themselves they should have that right so long as it harms no one else. Anyways I don't have really much to say about psychedelic drugs or Ayahuasca personally. I am still very interested in this research and the legal issues. I feel comfortable enough with the community here to share my perspective which is probably very seldom heard... I really hope at least one of you interested in this research takes time to read this...

Edit - Nicodem shared the most likely in my opinion hypothesis for the therapeutic effects associated with psychedelics. We can talk therapy, I think there's probably merit to that. I'm not one who would benefit from such therapy, but I have a mental health disorder which is believed to be related or at least treated by antagonizing adrenaline, serotonin, and dopamine receptors. I'd rather talk about literal chemical imbalances and physical structure of the brain.

Let me give you a personal story, very brief but to the point. The diagnosis I got was the psychological equivalent to cancer and receiving medication that on the bottle literally stated "Warning may cause sudden cardiac death" was no less reassuring... One medication I took made me gain 30 pounds in 2 months, then develop a temporary movement disorder. Unlike many, I was blessed in that it was temporary and not permenant... The current scientific models used in animals involve the substances LSD, PCP, and amphetamines and trying to downregulate their effects (pharmacologically or behaviourally).

That's really the best thing we have, rats on LSD swimming, going through mazes, etc... Hold on, keep in mind it's very hard to administer LSD to a rat without years of paper-work and likely rejection by the government.

Needless to say the availability of these substances in scientific communities is INTEGRAL to progress towards the disorder I have and other similar ones. It is and has historically been integral to nueroscience. Funnily enough I did a report on Lysergic acid derivatives and their medical uses and found that the discovery of LSD's psychological effect basically founded modern nueoscience, psychology, etc... That's not really where the line stops for me though...

I have in the past researched serotonin, and dopamine agonists just out of structure activity relationships, and what substances hit where, what do those substances do, and maybe "why". Also cannabis was of interest to me because supposedly cannabidiol can function as an anxiolytic and as an antipsychotic (rather peculiar really).

I recently did a medication change to a newer compound reported to be the most free of side-effects in it's class. Was a warm welcome. Nausea, verses things such as cognitive dulling, akathesia or tardive dyskenisia? HAH - any day of the week. Anyway's, this new medication actually serves as partial agonist at certain serotonin and dopamine receptor sites. Not particularly the psychedelic ones, so no abuse potential but still VERY interesting. This mode of activity is unlike it's predeccessors which are full antagonists ("amygdala labotomy").

Infact a new theory states activating only ONE serotonin site has proven to be successful in one model for treating such disorders. Will it make it through the FDA? Who knows... Maybe in two decades that will be decided... Imagine that though, an agonist (speculated cascade mechanism) verses a complete biochemical blockade...

So should psychedelic research be allowed? Without question. We have a mental health crisis world-wide. Not just depression, or anxiety, or I guess ADD/ADHD (those are all valid disorders and I think anyone who has experienced such states can empathize). People can argue that those are over-medicated and over-diagnosed disorders, whatever. We have 1% of the population(seems small, but take 1% of 7 billion, that's surreal) fighting for their 'sanity' and wanting to live a fulfilling life, some other odd percent bouncing from manic to depressive states.

I support anyone and everyone here or elsewhere who has taken an interest in legitimizing such research. I just hope that the message of mental illness is not over-shadowed by people wanting to get high. Don't get me wrong, again, I will say, do what you want but don't hurt anyone. For all I know getting high could be the most important thing any single person can do. Just remember psychedelic research is integral into taking a leading edge in serious mental health disorders. It has been a bit of a travesty that our efforts as human beings has been haulted in that avenue for so long by childish legal impediments.

That's really all I had to say... Blessings

[Edited on 11-4-2015 by smaerd]




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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 18:51


Smaerd, I am happy to hear you were able to transition to a new medication that has worked well so far. I hope that this continues, as transitioning from something like an antipsychotic can have difficulties that no one in the medical community can easily predict. I am close to someone with a debilitating psychosis that destroyed their ability to function "normally" in society, and they have chosen to largely avoid taking medication due to side effects they experienced.

I definitely believe a large part of the problem with psychological diseases, despite our knowledge of associated imbalances, is that they are very much heterologous diseases. As with 'cancer' or even albinism, many molecularly distinct issues can present similarly or identically, and determining cause from effect in such complex systems as the brain, which we still have yet to map out on a systems level or comprehend well from an intra-neuronal perspective.

Adding to this the difficulty of attempting to diagnose an individual largely based off of self-reported symptoms rather than quantifiable clinical signs, and the risk for miscommunication increases. I expect that future generations will be able to combine novel imaging techniques and genetic screening with new therapies (be they small molecule chemicals, macromolecules, implants, transcranial magnetic stimulation, or other) to tailor treatments to better serve patients. It's my opinion that serving in any validly designed research, whether as a researcher or subject, is likely to lead to advances in medical treatment.

Some of you may choose to donate your genome (note: these may be de-anonymized based on new studies) or take a new medication. Even healthy controls can participate in phase 1 safety profiling, so if someone you care about has an illness, you may still be able to directly assist with the advances associated with that.
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[*] posted on 10-4-2015 at 19:01


What I find to be almost unbearable is the fact that almost every slightly intelligent person on this planet will agree with your sentiment yet a tiny handful of lawmakers will die trying to block access to research.

What on Earth could be wrong with finding solutions people need for their problems?

My mother had a complicated cranial "bone spur" surgery in 1982, at a well respected NYC hospital.
During this procedure she bled. They had to pump blood into her to keep her alive. The blood was un-tested (1982), and bore the HIV virus.

For 14 years she reported symptoms, and was tested / treated for perhaps a dozen disorders, disease s, conditions. Everything except HIV because she did not fit "the profile".
She spent tens of thousands on medications, and in her last 2 years she found Marijuana as the only relief she could tolerate. It did not cure anything but it allowed her to live comfortably, and accept what was coming.

6 weeks before her death she was pulled over for a faulty light on the car, and arrested for possession of said relief. They found her tiny pot pipe in the ashtray of her AMC Gremlin.

We had to bail her out of JAIL! She of course died before ever appearing in court.

My sister wrote an essay on this story that won her The NY Chancellors Award. It was titled Living a life of AIDs

This comes back to my point about raping stoners, and tripped out hippies. Perhaps you can see why I am adamant about proper use of any chemical or really anything for that matter.
The difficulties researchers face are due largely to abusers, (IMHO)

I come from a family of addicts. Some used random street drugs, some booze, some legal pharmaceuticals. Every member of my family on both sides except for my mother, and my fathers father. There were generation of this behavior. Honestly I am surprised I made it out of there alive.
I did not mention that both sides of my family come from MONEY! No one ever wanted for anything. It was all brought to us so it was not social depression that brought this on. It was nothing more than boredom with life.

If people like mine helped to set the miss-conception that certain compounds are useless in medicine, I apologize for all of them.
Does that make it all better now? can we get on with helping people instead of wearing blinders?

I hope so.

I know where you are coming from Smaerd! So far everyone that has posted in this thread does.




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[*] posted on 11-4-2015 at 13:50


I suppose I could see how an extended DMT trip could make you happy to be who you are and that the effect isnt forever.



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[*] posted on 11-4-2015 at 17:33


Here I read some time ago the same with hembane & co.

"new" studies for the same!!!

of course all this is for keep up appearances that something is done :D

the same case with MMS (miracle mineral) used by the us army, in water purification, meat industry, etc, etc, etc. and the "experts" saying is very very dangerous, placebo, etc, etc, etc...

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0007/000747/074776eo.pdf#74...

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[*] posted on 11-4-2015 at 17:55


indeed szuko10 and even the chemist who invented L.s.d. felt great after his trip but during the tripping he prayed to God.many people have felt a sense of being protected by someone during a dmt trip including myself.i perceived that it was my mother who intervened in my welfare but that she also had to let me find out the unpleasant.i think we have a chemical in our brain that we subconsciously feel and comes to the rescue(intervenes) and alerts us of danger.life and all it brings IS the greatest trip and every day sobriety has the best visuals.depression though can trick the brain into seeing nothing but gray and doom and despair.depression is horrible and can make people kill themselves for nothing.my mother during her depression state would worry about not knowing where the strangers on board airplanes flying overhead were going.depression is way worse than drug addiction.
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[*] posted on 11-4-2015 at 21:00


Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves  
depression is way worse than drug addiction.



I Very much agree.
Depression in many cases leads to self medication, and more often than not this creates more issues, and prolongs the depression. Quite often for a life time.

There are commonalities in the reported experiences of DMT "trips" that seem rather curious. The reports of protective beings, aliens, whatever...

I have this feeling that DMT just may open a door to a common conscious among people or souls.
As per usual there is nothing scientific about this theory but the idea has nagged at me for some time. Now I understand that this idea may just be akin to BigFoot or wide eyed aliens in that people are creatures of suggestion.
If ten people say that God looks like Cookie Monster, then the eleventh person is very likely to see the same.

I base my idea on the fact that DMT does have a positive effect on almost ALL users. (not including abusers in this statement).
Lets say that one person goes on a month long retreat to some isolated location. There are one hundred people there that have never smoked tobacco or drank alcohol. During this month it would be quite easy to accept the fact that you really do not need either of these, and cessation of the addiction would be an easy, conscious choice. Most likely permanent because you made the decision.

Now whether DMT does link us to others or we perceive it to, the effect is the same. We accept ourselves because we realize WE have the power to make the changes that we need to make.

This comes back to, does N N-DMT actually change us or do we make the changes?

This alone is worth the research. Perhaps it could be discovered that we really don't need anything but ourselves.




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[*] posted on 14-4-2015 at 12:01


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
I base my idea on the fact that DMT does have a positive effect on almost ALL users. (not including abusers in this statement).

Psychedelics in general are not beneficial to all users. It really very much depends on the person and the setting. Some people, particularly excessively neurotic persons, will try to fight back the psychedelic state. On some psychedelics this can be done up to a certain limit, but if the dose is high enough, then there is no way, and fighting it back instead of accepting it can make the experience horrific. If you open the door, you better walk trough. The problem is that it is very difficult to explain a neurotic person that all he needs to do to stop the horror is just to stop resisting. It takes an experienced sitter or a therapist to manage such situations, or better yet just giving it up and stop it with diazepam. Unless properly managed the experience can only be traumatic to them. This was evidenced during the 50's and the 60's when LSD, DMT and other psychedelics were abused by certain incompetent physicians who thought that any "research" involving these drugs is an easy way to get funding and publishing articles. So they would dose schizophrenics, prisoners and other willing or unwilling people in totally inappropriate settings causing them a lot of suffering. Needles to say, that most of these researchers never even experienced the psychedelic state of mind themselves. There were proper researches done as well, but at the end, it is mostly malpractice that remains in the history (and this was even before the perverts from the MKUltra project got their hands on LSD).

Then there are also the irresponsible idiots who think psychedelics are like any other drug to get high with and end up doing stupid things. These people are too disconnected from themselves to even realize what is going on, so there is no chance for any beneficial effect. For them the psychedelic state can be as shallow as watching a Hollywood movie on TV. I'm not sure this even counts as drug abuse. It is more like self-abuse. In general it is quite difficult to abuse psychedelic drugs. It takes a lot of effort to use them and there is a natural opposition in most people against the experience (even if ignoring the days long tolerance prevents regular use). It is kind of like school. Nearly nobody likes it, but still nearly everybody goes to school to learn what needs to be learned.

Is DMT any different in this regard? Maybe for a few reasons. It is inactive orally, so you need to either smoke it or block its enzymatic degradation to get it to work. Smoking DMT has its peculiarities. The experience lasts only about 5 minutes (that can subjectively appear an hour long). There is also practically no low dose effect. You either break trough or you don't get anything. Most orally active psychedelics have some perceivable effect in the dosage between the threshold and the psychedelic breakthrough levels (a most common problem with the psychedelics is that people tend to take too low a dose). As far as I know, DMT does not have such levels. Even orally, activated by beta-carbolines, you either get over there or you feel nearly nothing (or worse, you get only nausea). Yet, smoked DMT or ayahuasca are very different experiences. Smoking it is so intense that you cannot humanly interpret the experience as you go. Even though it has no detrimental effects on cognitive abilities (aside the informational overload), it is just not possible to comprehend it (hence the mystical experience). It is like being flooded with data and all you can do is to awe at it all. Ayahuasca has a slower tempo, giving more possibilities to process the experience and incorporate the message. So, I think there can be no generalization on the therapeutic properties between the two methods of DMT use.

(Zombie, the correct acronym is N,N-DMT as for N,N-dimethyltryptamine, but you can skip the regioisomeric assignations when using the acronym as other DMT isomers are inactive anyway)




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[*] posted on 14-4-2015 at 12:32


You know... You are correct. I tend to forget about all the non willing "subjects", and the lunatic friends that have been pretty much permanently damaged from psychedelics.

The same example can be made for most things too. It does depend on the level of understanding that the user has. If you don't understand laxatives... You're gonna have a crappy day.;)

I see your point in "threshold" dosages. Low dose psilocybin, for example really can not be compared to low dose DMT (thanks for sparing me the extra typing).
What I am trying to find out is IF low dose DMT will allow the receptors associated with the compound to activate. If the receptors are working, the synapses are firing. If the synapses are firing then the positive effects should be taking place, ie: balanced brain activity.

Perhaps the "trip" is integral to the effect. Perhaps not.
To my knowledge there are no long term low dose studies. This is what I would like to see.

They put people on psychotropic meds for decades and this is acceptable? I don't see how.

Whether we create the changes needed or the compound creates the change... Either way, the change is made.

I'd rather see better meds developed than see people suffering simply because something is "not in vogue".

Perhaps this is all explained in the same fashion as political elitist's, war, poverty, ect... we ALL realize that these issues SUCK yet we allow it to happen. Most days I am ashamed to be a Human.




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[*] posted on 14-4-2015 at 13:34


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
What I am trying to find out is IF low dose DMT will allow the receptors associated with the compound to activate.

There can be no low dose activity from DMT as it is degraded in mater of seconds unless the monoaminooxidaze A enzyme is overloaded. DMT is as easily degraded by this enzyme as serotonin, the endogenous ligand. You would need psilocybin, LSD, DOB or other such metabolically stable 5-HT2A agonists to experiment with threshold levels of activity.

Quote:
If the receptors are working, the synapses are firing. If the synapses are firing then the positive effects should be taking place, ie: balanced brain activity.

The 5-HT2A receptors activation does not lead to synapses firing. These receptors are neuromodulatory. Their activation by agonists activates a few second messenger systems that alter the membrane potential, therefore facilitating or inhibiting the firing caused by glutamate (they modulate the firing, but do not induce it). Currently, it is not even certain which second messenger system(s) is/are involved in the induction of the psychedelic phenomenon (agonists can be quite discriminatory toward the second messenger system activation). If you are interested, David Nichols and his group did most of the discoveries that led to the current understanding of the mechanism of action of psychedelic drugs and the 5-HT2A receptors in general, so check his review articles.

Quote:
To my knowledge there are no long term low dose studies. This is what I would like to see.

There were people who experimented with daily threshold doses of LSD, or so they claim. Supposedly, a level can be maintained with an equilibrium against tolerance building, but it must be a very narrow dosage window. As for what they experienced and achieved on long term, I have yet to find a useful report. I doubt it was that beneficial, or else such self-medication would become more popular.

Quote:
They put people on psychotropic meds for decades and this is acceptable? I don't see how.

Yes, bur these psychotropic pharmaceuticals do not cause the psychedelic phenomena. It is acceptable to sedate or stimulate the mind with sedatives, tranquilizers or stimulants, or to narcotize it with opioids. Even dissociative hallucinogens and deliriants found use in the medicine (ketamine, scopolamine, atropine, antihistaminics, etc.). They are socially and politically acceptable, but the regulators do not find the psychedelic phenomenon equally acceptable. As far as I know, there are only two psychedelic drugs used in the medicine, ergonovine and methylergometrine, but they are used at considerably sub-psychedelic doses. There is also a similar bias against entactogens, but it appears that that there is more will to accept entactogenic drugs than psychedelic ones. Maybe it is because entactogens were found extremely useful in psychotherapy, or maybe there might be simply less (political) fear toward them.




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[*] posted on 14-4-2015 at 13:50


Ordinary people with induced mind-states beyond 'normal' ranges are disallowed by law as their responses to standard control inputs are unpredictable/unreliable.

That is the main reason that most 'drugs' are illegal.

The notion is founded on a Good idea, in that without control of any sort, people do all kinds of nasty things to each other, and generally produce less Work, and therefore Taxes.

Booze & Cigarettes were established and massively powerful before the whole Control thing got properly started, and therefore Won.




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[*] posted on 14-4-2015 at 15:46


Going back to my argument on Big Pharma. No they could not sell DMT or any of the other psychedelic drugs "as is". But if there is a working mechanism there, they can study it in infinite detail and develop a profitable, patent-able, schedule 4 analog that works as well or better. Its happened with all the other drugs. Look at the variety of benzos, steroids, barbituates etc. Once one company announces a new drug, the others all have copycats. The key is finding the mechanism, and they have had 50 years to study these.
Who knows maybe the current SSRIs etc are the "grandchildren" of psychedelics.

My feeling is these are too unpredictable for practical use. But who knows, they could be helpful to some individuals. Its stupid to jail someone for trying.

I remember reading and article saying many drug companies had given up on developing new psychiatric drugs.
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[*] posted on 14-4-2015 at 16:11


Zombie, generally for both toxicity and efficacy profiling, one uses an escalating dose to determine maximal plasma concentration, therapeutic window, etc. Just using a low dose isn't necessarily useful.

Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
Going back to my argument on Big Pharma. No they could not sell DMT or any of the other psychedelic drugs "as is". But if there is a working mechanism there, they can study it in infinite detail and develop a profitable, patent-able, schedule 4 analog that works as well or better. Its happened with all the other drugs. Look at the variety of benzos, steroids, barbituates etc. Once one company announces a new drug, the others all have copycats. The key is finding the mechanism, and they have had 50 years to study these.

The development of the drug classes you mentioned took place before the CSA, and schedule 1 drugs are difficult to work with, bureaucratically, so it's not really the same.
Quote:
Who knows maybe the current SSRIs etc are the "grandchildren" of psychedelics. [

SSRI drugs were actually among the first rationally designed drugs, so we do know what they were derived from. "Dr. Arvid Carlsson was the first one to develop the antidepressant compound, zimeldine, which was the first selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor (SSRI). The precursor of this drug was brompheniramine."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136031/

Quote:
My feeling is these are too unpredictable for practical use. But who knows, they could be helpful to some individuals. Its stupid to jail someone for trying.
Another concern is that as long as you are using a plant extract, you have concerns about availability. Just look at Taxol. You had a botanical extract where demand exceeded total world supply. Scientists determined the active ingredients, synthesized it after much trouble in the lab, then optimized it for different pharmacological profiles.
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[*] posted on 14-4-2015 at 16:17


Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
What I am trying to find out is IF low dose DMT will allow the receptors associated with the compound to activate.

There can be no low dose activity from DMT as it is degraded in mater of seconds unless the monoaminooxidaze A enzyme is overloaded. DMT is as easily degraded by this enzyme as serotonin, the endogenous ligand. You would need psilocybin, LSD, DOB or other such metabolically stable 5-HT2A agonists to experiment with threshold levels of activity.


Quote:
To my knowledge there are no long term low dose studies. This is what I would like to see.

There were people who experimented with daily threshold doses of LSD, or so they claim. Supposedly, a level can be maintained with an equilibrium against tolerance building, but it must be a very narrow dosage window. As for what they experienced and achieved on long term, I have yet to find a useful report. I doubt it was that beneficial, or else such self-medication would become more popular.



I am kind of confusing to follow at times.

When I describe "low dose" dmt, I am also including an MAOI as part, and parcel of the treatment. More similar to Ayahuasca in an oral form.

Low dose LSD has been studied fairly well as you pointed out but it is hard to find credible research. Without knowing enough about the entire subject I dare to say that LSD, and DMT are so far removed from each other that any research on LSD will have limited value as to what DMT is actually doing.

The 5-HT2A receptors that David Nicholls (I am reading "Effects of 5-HT-releasing agents on extracellular hippocampal 5-HT of rats. Implications for the development of novel antidepressants with a short onset of action") has studied so well may be a common link between the two compounds but as you pointed out it may well be the secondary receptors that differentiate the two.
What LSD does appears to be a very different ball of wax compared to DMT.

Exactly what that difference is??? I think it is important to know.


Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  


Quote:
They put people on psychotropic meds for decades and this is acceptable? I don't see how.

Yes, bur these psychotropic pharmaceuticals do not cause the psychedelic phenomena. It is acceptable to sedate or stimulate the mind with sedatives, tranquilizers or stimulants, or to narcotize it with opioids. Even dissociative hallucinogens and deliriants found use in the medicine (ketamine, scopolamine, atropine, antihistaminics, etc.). They are socially and politically acceptable, but the regulators do not find the psychedelic phenomenon equally acceptable. As far as I know, there are only two psychedelic drugs used in the medicine, ergonovine and methylergometrine, but they are used at considerably sub-psychedelic doses. There is also a similar bias against entactogens, but it appears that that there is more will to accept entactogenic drugs than psychedelic ones. Maybe it is because entactogens were found extremely useful in psychotherapy, or maybe there might be simply less (political) fear toward them.



I very much appreciate the fact that people in a hallucinatory state are not really what we need working at the bank or even at a gas station.
Fact is I know plenty of people sooooo messed up on their prescribed drugs that I don't allow them near my home or my dogs. A potential side effect of "False sense of well being" (Adarol) does not mix with a Presa Canario. The dog will quickly remove that false sense, along with a limb or most of a face.

Perhaps high dose treatments will work to alleviate physiological/ psychological disorders. Perhaps short term treatment is all that is needed to complete a task. Maybe the Big Hammer theory does apply.
I have almost always chosen to chip away at a project with a small hammer first. Perhaps that has always been a fundamental flaw in the research? You can easily drive a nail with a sledge hammer but you can not always see what is happening along the nails route. Too much too fast...

I really do appreciate your participating in this thread Nicodem. This is essentially the subject that led me to find your site. Yes indeed my horizons are broadening but learning more about the physiology of the human brain is my main goal, and your insights are more than helpful. They are leading me in the right direction to learn the correct methods to learn more.

Here are two very helpful videos. One from Nicholls, (LSD Neuroscience), and one from Carhar- Harris (Brain Imaging Studies with Psilocybin and MDMA)

These are both rather long lectures but they contain a lot of info that applies to this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNR4o5JZEi0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbUGRcuA16E

Mr. Aga... I know all those people. They all live here in Carrabelle.




They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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[*] posted on 14-4-2015 at 17:15


Zombie, I definitely recommend textbooks and statistics prior to or during investigation into the primary lit. There are issues with neuroscience as a field that are still being ironed out. See the first video, slide with the Andrews-Hannah data? 21:37? I don't mean to libel the authors, as the inference may be valid, but look at how poor that correlation is, and no coefficient is shown in the slide. Some of this is just how neuroscience is, unfortunately. The unavoidable nature of the data. That may be reason for skepticism. Without experience or serious reading on the methodologies, it's hard to say.

Also, there are questions of what statistics are valid. This is a problem in all aspects of science, but recently neuro has been the subject of more criticism for 'hard' sciences: http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v14/n9/full/nn.2886.html
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