Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Non-chemistry » Legal and Societal Issues » It finally happened, the police showed up Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues

Pages:  1  2    4  ..  9
Author: Subject: It finally happened, the police showed up
learningChem
Hazard to Others

Posts: 182
Registered: 21-7-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

So australia is just another shitty police state. Well, I suppose they take their orders from the DEA.
Tdep
International Hazard

Posts: 504
Registered: 31-1-2013
Location: Laser broken since Feb 2020 lol
Member Is Offline

Mood: *PhD Crisis Time*

Lol no? It's illegal to make methamphetamines and they enforce it, where is the issue?
Loptr
International Hazard

Posts: 1316
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Grateful

I think the issue may be with how easily they were able to get a warrant just for the observance of glassware.
blogfast25
Thought-provoking Teacher

Posts: 10367
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Old Blighty
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

 Quote: Originally posted by Loptr I think the issue may be with how easily they were able to get a warrant just for the observance of glassware.

If possession of lab glassware isn't illegal in your locality, you should sue.

'Watching them watching us'.

szuko03
Hazard to Others

Posts: 188
Registered: 3-4-2015
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

I think its interesting how people from the US instantly think that if it involves police and "shrinking rights" if you will they think its domestic. Of course Australia investigates lab glass as that is their biggest threat it is much different then in the US in a sense. I would also imagine they are right in the middle of the media frenzy if you will, I mod on a forum more directed toward harm reduction and drug use safety all of the articles coming out of AU are for their ice epidemic. Sure we have some stories about meth but we are more into Research chemicals and "fake this and that killing high school honors students" then methamphetamine that was ours in like 2008.

I didnt mean it as an insult to anyone at all it is just something I noticed as a parallel between the two forums. I know it is because of a sort of fear or disrespect toward police on our end and its not for no reason either as "cop kill unarmed so and so" is all over our news.

Chemistry is a natural drive, not an interest.
turd
International Hazard

Posts: 800
Registered: 5-3-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

 Quote: Originally posted by Tdep Lol no? It's illegal to make methamphetamines and they enforce it, where is the issue?

If you don't understand the issue, then you are part of the problem. Simply put: If glassware is not illegal, then it's none of their business. Also looks like they were lying to you about the warrant.
aga
Forum Drunkard

Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline

Ok children, calm down, and stop thinking the Police are Bad.

They're (mostly) grown-ups trying to prevent people from harming each other.

If they see a room full of Guns, they might well want to have a look to see what that's all about. If it's a room full of people brandishing guns, they may well call for backup first.

If they see Glassware in a 'non-standard' setting then they will want to ask questions, and begin by assuming it's a drug lab, as they usually are.

Same as if they see a drunkard weaving across the highway - they will investigate, not to cause the innocent drunkard a problem, but to prevent the idiot drunkard causing life-threatening problems for other people.

Police are used by politicians, so it isn't anywhere near black-and-white.

Whichever way you view the Police, we need them to maintain any kind of 'safe' society, and in the main, they do a better job at it than you or i.

Loptr
International Hazard

Posts: 1316
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Grateful

 Quote: Originally posted by aga Ok children, calm down, and stop thinking the Police are Bad. They're (mostly) grown-ups trying to prevent people from harming each other. If they see a room full of Guns, they might well want to have a look to see what that's all about. If it's a room full of people brandishing guns, they may well call for backup first. If they see Glassware in a 'non-standard' setting then they will want to ask questions, and begin by assuming it's a drug lab, as they usually are. Same as if they see a drunkard weaving across the highway - they will investigate, not to cause the innocent drunkard a problem, but to prevent the idiot drunkard causing life-threatening problems for other people. Police are used by politicians, so it isn't anywhere near black-and-white. Whichever way you view the Police, we need them to maintain any kind of 'safe' society, and in the main, they do a better job at it than you or i.

I have more of a problem with the loosening of the requirements in order to investigate this sort of matter. In this particular instance, there wasn't a problem and of no ill affect on Tdep, which is a good thing and something I hope we see a lot more of in the coming years, rather than the opposite.

All of this is an indicator of the current perception of chemistry, and the more risky hobby's in general, by the general populous and politicians. If the populous says that chemistry is an invalid hobby, and that anyone ordering glassware is a possible threat, then I say that is an issue that needs to be addressed. Also, if the politicians want to make themselves looks good in the eyes of the populous, then they will do their best to be perceived as their champion; champion in the war on drugs! When the politicians have made this claim, then the police have to fulfill that promise, and in turn, become more vigilante in this pursuit. It is this vigilance that is of concern, as you have just become an enemy of the State in their minds, and we have heard evidence of this happening.

In the USA, we have a similar issue that been brewing for a while now, and that is with the right to bear arms. More balanced individuals, like myself, enjoy having the ability to own a weapon and go to great lengths to ensure something unintentional does not happen during the course of its usage and storage. In the mean time we have nuts blatantly open-carrying around schools, grocery stores, and airports (?!?!?). They are screwing it up for the rest of us, as I can guarantee you, after shenanigans such as this, this fundamental provision will be given quite a bit more thought of its relevance in the future. This parallels with the chemistry hobbyist and drug cooks. We should be as equally opposed to the generalization and treatment of drug cooks compared to hobbyist, as we should in the USA of separating the more conservative individuals from the extremes. Our rights shouldn't be trampled upon just because some people break the law, as there will always be those that break the law, and this is no justification for them to take a second look at us without just cause. Ordering glassware is not just cause! Should you have the ability to come to my house and take a look around just because I ordered something completely legal? I think not. Should you have the right to come to my house and take a look around after neighbors start reporting suspicious behavior, traffic, explosions, and smells coming from my property. Absolutely!

[Edited on 8-6-2015 by Loptr]
aga
Forum Drunkard

Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline

If you ordered 2kg of plutonium off ebay, then i'd call that Just Cause and grant a warrant.

The problem (in the US at least) is that those ordering glassware and chemicals are meth cooks, with the amateur chemists in the minority.

The majority of gun & ammo orders are made by 'normal' people, with the gun-toting criminals in the minority.

Why on earth you'd need 300,000 rounds of 30 cal ammo a week is beyond me, however personal ownership and use of an M134 is deemed OK in most states.

[Edited on 8-6-2015 by aga]

aga
Forum Drunkard

Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline

 Quote: Originally posted by learningChem So australia is just another shitty police state. Well, I suppose they take their orders from the DEA.

Learn something about Australia before making stupid remarks about a State that spans an entire Continent.

I guess you saw on Youtube that their capital city is Sydney.

[Edited on 8-6-2015 by aga]

blogfast25
Thought-provoking Teacher

Posts: 10367
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Old Blighty
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

 Quote: Originally posted by aga If you ordered 2kg of plutonium off ebay, then i'd call that Just Cause and grant a warrant. The problem (in the US at least) is that those ordering glassware and chemicals are meth cooks, with the amateur chemists in the minority.

Talk about an absurd comparison: 2 kg of Pu and ordering/owning lab glass ware!!!! Owning Pu, with exception for minute quantities and relevant permits, is ILLEGAL almost anywhere, BTW. Own it and you're breaking the Law. Go straight to Gaol, do not collect $100. As for the second assertion, do you have any evidence for it or have you retreated into your 'no evidence needed, I just KNOW these things' bunker again? People should not be penalised for owning something that is neither used nor intended for malice. By your logic, start rounding up people who own hammers and knives too. It's even more absurd that in some countries guns are mostly legal but lab glass invites a knock on the door. aga Forum Drunkard Posts: 7030 Registered: 25-3-2014 Member Is Offline The reality is that owning chemical-ish glassware raises a high degree of suspicion. No Scientific Facts are readily available relating to this as the Studies to render such confirmatory Data are pretty much impossible at this time. May as well ask the Catholic church to do a Scientific study relating to the incidence of Burning At The Stake vs Let Go Free for Catholic priests in 1538 during the Dissolution of the Monasteries. With Human behaviour, Science fails badly, especially regarding the derivation of Laws. [Edited on 8-6-2015 by aga] blogfast25 Thought-provoking Teacher Posts: 10367 Registered: 3-2-2008 Location: Old Blighty Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by aga The reality is that owning chemical-ish glassware raises a high degree of suspicion. A reality that strongly points to prejudice. And that has to change unless one wants it to simply get worse over time... aga Forum Drunkard Posts: 7030 Registered: 25-3-2014 Member Is Offline "There is no need for argument where an experiment is possible." blogfast25 wearing a white coat in a windowed shop on the corner of West 141st Street and Amsterdam Avenue, close to New York City College, simply making Methyl Salicylate by the bucketload, stored in 5g cellophane bags. I would suggest Time from start of first reflux to SWAT arrival to be the determinant in this experiment. Edit: Catalysts could be employed such as adding a Towel, however we only have one blogfast25 and would not wish to lose him in this way. [Edited on 8-6-2015 by aga] blogfast25 Thought-provoking Teacher Posts: 10367 Registered: 3-2-2008 Location: Old Blighty Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood You miss the point and I give up. Or should that be 'you piss the point'? Whatevah... confused Hazard to Others Posts: 244 Registered: 17-3-2013 Location: Singapore Member Is Offline Mood: tired  Quote: Originally posted by aga "There is no need for argument where an experiment is possible." blogfast25 wearing a white coat in a windowed shop on the corner of West 141st Street and Amsterdam Avenue, close to New York City College, simply making Methyl Salicylate by the bucketload, stored in 5g cellophane bags. I would suggest Time from start of first reflux to SWAT arrival to be the determinant in this experiment. Edit: Catalysts could be employed such as adding a Towel, however we only have one blogfast25 and would not wish to lose him in this way. [Edited on 8-6-2015 by aga] if its done in a windowed shop people might think it was a demo/marketing stunt .etc szuko03 Hazard to Others Posts: 188 Registered: 3-4-2015 Location: USA Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood I do like how everyone is going nuts when the police investigated and decided he wasnt a threat and didnt bother him further. Is that not the desired outcome? I mean when you get pulled over you show your paperwork and prove the car isnt stolen maybe answer some questions and go on your way, which is almost exactly what happened here. The police came asked about what he was doing he answered a few questions was deemed not a threat and allowed to proceed. I get it we can all go "but they shouldnt show up in the first place" and although that may be true in a sense being told to proceed is basically the same thing if not better. Provided the OP isnt a closet meth cook or something at least now he knows hes in the clear and if he got the officers info he can say "officer so and so already inspected my lab station" I think it was ok and if it happened to me I would be ok with it. I love talking chemistry and as long as the police arent jerks I would gladly show them my lab and show them how far you can take at home learning, which I think is another issue in todays society we separate learning from the home when most chemists in the 1800s the lab was their home and they discovered shit outside of the university. Chemistry is a natural drive, not an interest. blogfast25 Thought-provoking Teacher Posts: 10367 Registered: 3-2-2008 Location: Old Blighty Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by szuko03 I do like how everyone is going nuts when the police investigated and decided he wasnt a threat and didnt bother him further. Because there's a principle at stake here: sufficient probable cause. There's plenty of stuff lying about the house that can be used for all kinds of nefarious uses but we don't go around asking people what they plan to do with their knives (or whatever else)... just in case! If possession of labware in a home setting makes you almost by definition a suspect then clearly something is wrong and that needs to be addressed.  Quote: Originally posted by szuko03 Provided the OP isnt a closet meth cook or something at least now he knows hes in the clear and if he got the officers info he can say "officer so and so already inspected my lab station" Being 'in the clear' on this occasion does not provide immunity against future (legitimate or not) investigation or worse. Nor should it. [Edited on 9-6-2015 by blogfast25] Zombie Forum Hillbilly Posts: 1700 Registered: 13-1-2015 Location: Florida PanHandle Member Is Offline Mood: I just don't know... 100% on board w/ Blogfast. What is in the US constitution, and without a doubt Aus, Great Brit, and MOST other free nations??? Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Suspicion of impending loitering is NOT a crime. Possession of Lab Glass is NOT a crime (in this case). Grounds for a warrant? I would go ahead, and ask to see this warrant today, and SUE THE SHORTS OFF OF THEM!!! As has been said here already. You're talking 100g's at least to settle. Buy a Monster lab with a jacobs ladder, and those big electric switches on the wall. Get some 55 gallon drums of dry ice, and dump ultra violet hot stuff in them. Do it all on the front lawn. Then buy 40 cases of baseball bats, 40 cases of duct tape, 40 bags of lye, 40 tarps, and 40 ski masks, and sue the hell out of them AGAIN! Eventually you can buy plutonium, and build a hole maker in your front yard, and they'll walk right past. Look at Camden, New Jersey. Cameras on every pole, and microphones to triangulate gun shots. Guess what else the mic;s pick up? Every word you say. VIOLATION of your rights>>>>>>>>>>Period! The world is in over drive, and allowing it HAS to stop. SUE THE BASTARDS! Best three words on this thread! [Edited on 6-10-2015 by Zombie] They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor. Zom. blogfast25 Thought-provoking Teacher Posts: 10367 Registered: 3-2-2008 Location: Old Blighty Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Thanks Zomb. No need to go 'nukular' (in Shrub's immortal words), though . Revenge is best served cold. If 'probable cause' constitutes no more than legal possession of whatever, I think a case for suing the cops exists. Whoever has the courage to do so. Or contact Ralph Nader: none of the a$$h*ts in Congress are likely to even think about your cause, too busy sucking up to Big Corp and any one else willing to give them 'moar moneys' for passing lucrative bills. As I've written elsewhere, if the problem of needless harassment of amateur chemists persists, the latter need to get organised. Occupy Something!! [Edited on 10-6-2015 by blogfast25] Zombie Forum Hillbilly Posts: 1700 Registered: 13-1-2015 Location: Florida PanHandle Member Is Offline Mood: I just don't know... Bring dogs! It worked for the Irish. Can you imagine the next occupation of the Grey House lawn? The million man, and 7 million dog re declaration of Independence! I just got goose bumps~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (That's a Tilde) They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor. Zom. Tdep International Hazard Posts: 504 Registered: 31-1-2013 Location: Laser broken since Feb 2020 lol Member Is Offline Mood: *PhD Crisis Time* I do disagree with you guys, but that's ok. Let's not underestimate the differences in the cultures between the two countries. Most people have nothing against the police here in Aus. The other Australian members will back me up here i'm sure. When the police asked us to turn our guns in, what did we do? Everyone turned their gun in. Would that ever happen in America? (hint: no.) If the police want to investigate every house for a meth lab, everyone would open their homes. Not even kidding, at least where I live there's a sort of 'if you've done nothing wrong you shouldn't try to hide anything' attitude. Zombie Forum Hillbilly Posts: 1700 Registered: 13-1-2015 Location: Florida PanHandle Member Is Offline Mood: I just don't know... 100% agree with you on all of it. It's not the police in particular that we have the problem with. It is the powers that be that control the police. THEY have been shifting the mentality, and the function of the police departments from "Protect, and Serve" to Follow your orders, and let us worry about the applicable laws. Our Constitution has become an antiquated notion of how a country should be governed. I don't think it is even taught in schools anymore. How many Americans here under the age of 20, have really read it? In honest replies my guess is less than 4%. Come to my house with a LEGIT court order for anything, and I'll put out coffee, and doughnuts. Come to my house with some BS violation of my Constitutional rights, and I'll put out the dogs. Not even joking a little. I'll defend myself from jail if need be. They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor. Zom. j_sum1 Administrator Posts: 5850 Registered: 4-10-2014 Location: Unmoved Member Is Offline Mood: Possessor of a tidy and organised lab. Now to mess it up again. I think there are a couple of issues in question here. The first is the legitimacy or otherwise of police being requested to follow leads provided by customs officials. Actually, I don't mind that. I quite like proactive policing. I like it when things get investigated early and the majority of matters turn out to be non-events. That is a whole lot better than people displaying a range of, let's say ambiguous behaviour, which the police know about but do nothing until some fruit loop cracks and the whole lot blows up in our faces. Cite: Sydney cafe seige. So if someone is buying up large volumes of cold medication, importing swords, has 200 cars per day pull up to their house for five minutes each, or has clouds of unusual-smelling smoke emanating from their garage on a regular basis or whatever, I don't mind if questions are asked. That used to be called community policing -- a paradigm where the police have a presence in the community and know a bit of what is going on. They are then able to distinguish between eccentric crackpots like you and me and real criminal behaviour and get the jump on the latter. I am led to believe that this policing paradigm is (a) cheaper, (b) more effective at curbing criminal activity and (c) more supportive of individual rights in the long run. The second is the fact that the police had a warrant to search. I don't know if that means something different in the US, but here in oz, it means just that -- a warrant to search. There is no implication of guilt here. Tdep was not a suspect. It isn't even possible for him to be a suspect since there was no crime. A warrant to search is merely an information-gathering tool. It is very limited in its scope. It is specific to a particular instance -- date and location. It is not too different to closing off a road after a car accident to investigate the scene. It is a nuisance from a practical standpoint. There is no suggestion of accusation until after the information has been gathered and there is positive evidence of illegal activity. A search warrant is not a waiver of an individual's rights in any way -- those are actually protected by law. Even if the warrant was procured illegitimately, there is nothing to sue for. You can only sue for identifiable damages and in this case there was none. Again, I consider it good that the police had a warrant that they could use. If they had come across a clandestine drug lab (as happens reasonably often) then they would have had the ability to act decisively straight away to deal with it. Without a warrant the crims likely get away. With a warrant there is a greater distinction made between the behaviour of law-abiding citizens and criminal activity. The third issue is the way in which the police acted. No photos. No accusations. Just a few straightforward questions. No notes taken. Quickly sizing up the situation and acting appropriately in a friendly way. That is all I would expect of LEO. The fact that Tdep demonstrably had nothing to hide worked in his favour. My$0.02.
MrHomeScientist
International Hazard

Posts: 1806
Registered: 24-10-2010
Location: Flerovium
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

 Quote: Originally posted by Zombie I don't think it [the Constitution] is even taught in schools anymore.

That's pretty blatantly false and alarmist, don't you think?
Pages:  1  2    4  ..  9

 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Non-chemistry » Legal and Societal Issues » It finally happened, the police showed up Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues