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veganalchemist
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Periodic Tables to become ILLEGAL in Europe
Hi all,
the Explosives Precursors and Poisons (EPP) regulations where update on the 22nd May this year.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/licensing-for-hom...
The following has been added:-
Poisons:
Aluminium phosphide
Arsenic and its compounds (other than calcium arsenites, copper acetoarsenite, copper arsenates, copper arsenites, lead arsenates)
Barium salts (other than barium sulphate, barium carbonate and barium silicofluoride)
Bromomethane
Chloropicrin
Fluoroacetic acid, its salts and fluoroacetamide
Hydrogen cyanide and metal cyanides (other than ferrocyanides and ferricyanides)
Lead acetates and compounds of lead with acids from fixed oils
Magnesium phosphide
Mercury and its compounds (including: nitrates of mercury; oxides of mercury; mercuric cyanide oxides; mercuric thiocyanate; ammonium mercuric
chlorides; potassium mercuric iodides; organic compounds of mercury which contain a methyl group directly linked to the mercury atom)
Oxalic acid- 10% w/w
Phenols (phenol; phenolic isomers of the following — cresols, xylenols, monoethylphenols); compounds of phenols with a metal- 60% w/w of phenols
or, for compounds of phenols with a metal, the equivalent of 60% w/w of phenols
Phosphorus yellow
Strychnine and its salts and its quaternary compounds
Thallium and its salts
This means that arsenic, mercury, phosphorus (white) and thallium will be illegal without a EPP license.
Not sure about mercury as some people may have old mercury (clinical) thermometers.
Not good for element collectors.
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phlogiston
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And mineral collectors.
And people who make ceramics.
And painters.
How come these lists always look like they were made by somebody with a very limited understanding of chemistry and common naming conventions?
"Lead acetates and compounds of lead with acids from fixed oils"... What is that supposed to mean? How many 'lead acetates' do they believe there are,
never mind the cryptic remaining part of the line.
and "Mercury and its compounds (including: ---snip a list of compounds---)".
Now, I would understand if there were a few excluded compounds that you would need to name them specifically. But 'including' is pointless... "and its
compounds" already covers all of them.
-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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blogfast25
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Gotta love that bit:
| Quote: | | Certain chemicals can be used in the illicit manufacture of explosives or to cause harm. |
Make that ALL chemicals. Ergo, ban ALL chemicals, except for use/misuse/marketing by Neoliberal Companies, of course...
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unionised
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Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  |
"Lead acetates and compounds of lead with acids from fixed oils"... What is that supposed to mean? How many 'lead acetates' do they believe there are,
never mind the cryptic remaining part of the line.
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Lead (II) acetate, lead (II) subacetate and lead (IV) acetate (possibly others too).
The fixed oils are the ones that are not essential oils (so we are talking about triglycerides of the fatty acids). They are lead compounds used in
(among other things) paint.
What was that about a "limited understanding of names"?
They make perfect sense to me.
However it's still a daft law.
Exactly what do they think will happen with people's collections when they become illegal? An amusing idea would be to drop the stuff off at the local
police station the day before the law takes effect.
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Texium
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Oxalic acid??? To me that's the one that looks the most ridiculous on that list. What, are they scared that somebody is going to go around slipping it
into people's food to try and give them kidney stones?
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by unionised |
The fixed oils are the ones that are not essential oils (so we are talking about triglycerides of the fatty acids). They are lead compounds used in
(among other things) paint.
What was that about a "limited understanding of names"?
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C'mon, unionised. That term is far from unambiguous. And good Laws rely on clarity. 'Soaps of lead' would have been far more meaningful. It's a stupid
point to attack phlogiston on, if you ask me...
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Sulaiman
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I guess it is about time that I applied for a license ...
has any UK member applied, been granted or refused?
[Edited on 4-6-2015 by Sulaiman]
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macckone
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Does this mean Thalium and lead containing electronic products too? Because almost all electronic solder contains lead. Thalium based capacitors are
in most computers. And substantial portion of plastics are phenol based. Mercury relays are still used in a lot of industrial applications. And
then there are old thermometers and thermostats.
Edit sorry the capacitors are tantalum not thalium.
[Edited on 5-6-2015 by macckone]
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byko3y
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My opinion about the list:
| Quote: | Aluminium phosphide
Magnesium phosphide
Phosphorus yellow
Arsenic and its compounds (other than calcium arsenites, copper acetoarsenite, copper arsenates, copper arsenites, lead arsenates)
Bromomethane
Chloropicrin
Hydrogen cyanide and metal cyanides (other than ferrocyanides and ferricyanides)
Mercury and its compounds (including: nitrates of mercury; oxides of mercury; mercuric cyanide oxides; mercuric thiocyanate; ammonium mercuric
chlorides; potassium mercuric iodides; organic compounds of mercury which contain a methyl group directly linked to the mercury atom)
Strychnine and its salts and its quaternary compounds
Thallium and its salts |
Are all dangerous and it's good that they have been banned. Ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are legal, so you can still make OTC cyanides.
But this
| Quote: | Fluoroacetic acid, its salts and fluoroacetamide
Lead acetates and compounds of lead with acids from fixed oils
Oxalic acid- 10% w/w
Phenols (phenol; phenolic isomers of the following — cresols, xylenols, monoethylphenols); compounds of phenols with a metal- 60% w/w of phenols or,
for compounds of phenols with a metal, the equivalent of 60% w/w of phenols |
makes me feel like WTF? I don't
really get the idea.
Also, lead metal seems to be not banned, as well as lead oxides and sulphates, otherwise most cars would become illegal. I can just thank gods that we
have cars which need sulfuric acid and lead, because otherwise I don't really see other ways to obtain them.
| Quote: | | Barium salts (other than barium sulphate, barium carbonate and barium silicofluoride) |
You can actually use
barium carbonate to make any barium salt, including barium chloride (but you can't make barium hydroxyde easily).
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j_sum1
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I think the only thing that is allowable is helium.
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Corrosive Joeseph
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That's because they are.
And this situation will not get any better.
Only worse........................
Being well adjusted to a sick society is no measure of one's mental health
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turd
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The title is wrong, please fix it.
The UK is not the EU and the EU is not Europe.
To my understanding only the explosive part is the implementation of an EU directive. With the exception of HNO3, that part is not the catastrophe
some people think it is, because the chemicals are only banned above a certain (still useful) concentration.
The poison part is the UK government going over board. They have this talent of implementing by far the strictest rule in the whole EU and then
blaming the EU for it.
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phlogiston
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| Quote: Originally posted by unionised |
Lead (II) acetate, lead (II) subacetate and lead (IV) acetate (possibly others too).
The fixed oils are the ones that are not essential oils (so we are talking about triglycerides of the fatty acids). They are lead compounds used in
(among other things) paint. |
Ok, I agree perhaps 'lead acetates' isn't so bad. I admit I naively only thought of lead(II) and lead(IV) acetate, so simply 'lead acetate' would have
covered both.
I still think the rest is unnecessarily cryptic, though.
"acids of fixed oils" yields exactly 1 google hit. That's rare these days.
Blogfasts suggestion "lead soaps" yields more than 9000 and in addition covers similarly poisonous compounds that people could make from fatty acids
not obtained from ‘fixed oils’.
Worse, the meaning of ‘fixed oils’ appears ambiguous. If you look at the use of the term in different contexts, some take it to be non-volatile
oils, others define it as non-essential, with 'essential' itself having different meanings in different contexts. In perfumery, the essential oils are
the fraction of oils that contain the characteristic fragrance of the plant from which they were extracted. In metabolism, essential oils are those
that contain the fatty acids an organism can't synthesize itself but needs to take in from external sources.
But never mind the semantics. We all agree it is not helping our hobby and is not going to be very effective to fight terrorism.
-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by turd |
The poison part is the UK government going over board. They have this talent of implementing by far the strictest rule in the whole EU and then
blaming the EU for it. |
I fully second the last sentence: EUphobia reaches absurd heights on our green pastures.
But I do believe this new legislation originates in the EU. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it. I for one would be very
interested in that evidence.
| Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston |
Worse, the meaning of ‘fixed oils’ appears ambiguous. If you look at the use of the term in different contexts, some take it to be non-volatile
oils, others define it as non-essential, with 'essential' itself having different meanings in different contexts. In perfumery, the essential oils are
the fraction of oils that contain the characteristic fragrance of the plant from which they were extracted. In metabolism, essential oils are those
that contain the fatty acids an organism can't synthesize itself but needs to take in from external sources.
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You're correct but the ambiguity is often caused by linguistic erosion, conflation of terms and sloppy expression on the part of amateurs (we see this
also on this forum) and consumers. But it's the Law maker's job to provide the 'best possible' definition, not use terms that are far from clear.
[Edited on 5-6-2015 by blogfast25]
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turd
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | But I do believe this new legislation originates in the EU. If you have evidence to the contrary, please present it. I for one would be very
interested in that evidence.
|
Well, this: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX... does not say anything about lead salts, etc. Of course it's possible that the law
is implementing two ore more EU directives in one strike... I remember faintly that there was something about unifying access to poisons, pesticides,
etc.?
Unification of such matters is of course sensible in a unified market. Unfortunately you can be certain that they will adopt in every case the most
strict rules. With full support of the population.
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blogfast25
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@Turd:
On this occasion it isn't entirely clear. But past experience as a trader in lab chemicals was that restrictions on materials was ALWAYS the direct
result of UK implementation of EU directives. That is also true of most modern environmental legislation, as well as Health and Safety legislation.
Sadly the population will indeed support all this, insofar as they're aware of it, of course. UK 'Euro-sceptics' often have their priorities
up-side-down.
[Edited on 5-6-2015 by blogfast25]
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DFliyerz
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This was kind of a clickbait title.
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veganalchemist
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Hi, sorry if I got the title wrong.
Thinking about mercury again. As I was at 4 am today.
How about people (I did have one of these) with door chimes with a mercury tilt switch.
Mercury can be found in compact florescent light bulbs.
And last of all, with people over a certain age, mercury fillings!! Are they going to make our heads illegal?
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unionised
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As far as I can tell this law is home-grown stupidity, rather than the implementation of an EU regulation.
While the EU regs get a lot of stick for being long, they are usually clear and show evidence of having been thought through properly.
Thislaw, and the full version is here,
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/966/pdfs/uksi_201509...
is plainly silly for a number of reasons- the banning of the mercury present in so many of our teeth being one example.
The full rules also include "Compressed hydrogen cyanide may only be supplied in a container that is labelled with
the words: “Warning. This container holds poisonous gas and should only be opened and used by
persons having expert knowledge of the precautions to be taken in its use”.
"
Well HCN boils at 25C, so, if it's compressed it contains a lot more liquid than gas.
That sort of thing just shows that this law has been rushed through and my best guess is that they did it so they can say "We have done something
about terrorism".
As long as we can grow flowers in the garden, the lack of oxalic acid in the local chemist's isn't going to deprive me or anyone else of the ability
to poison someone, so it utterly fails to do the job.
All it does is breed fear and anxiety. Why a government who just had their plans to continue with "austerity" in order to finance tax-cuts for the
rich read out by a woman on a gold throne would want the populous worrying about non-existent terror threats is another matter.
it's probably not quite as stupid as this one.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2015-20...
which bans enjoying yourself.
[Edited on 6-6-15 by unionised]
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macckone
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Why would anyone use oxalic acid to poison someone. It tastes horrible. Ethylene glycol on the other hand is very sweet and is converted to oxalic
acid in the victims body. Achieving the same effect while being much easier to get the victim to consume. Every year thousands of animals are
poisoned by ethylene glycol leaking from cars. I haven't heard of one poisoned by someone's rhubarb garden.
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Zombie
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What did I tell you all in that other thread when I first joined. It was a thread where I said you will have NOTHING left.
it was argued that the "list" was just a proposal, and I said NO IT IS A LIST!
Freedom huh?
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Schizophrenic
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I think the only thing that is allowable is... roasted air 
According to the graphs cigarettes have to be outlawed, alcohol,...
Where does it end ?
I mean money counts and if the government need money then this is what they do, easy money and you are a terrorism so you have to pay for that. sick
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aga
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I'd ban all Organics and make it a public duty to seize anything Organic on sight, and not let go until the cops turn up.
Then you'd have to seize them as well, and not let go of the tree.
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Zombie
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We don't need chemistry. Nothing important ever came out of it anyway.
Now trees we need, and rocks. The real hard ones.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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jtate
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | Gotta love that bit:
| Quote: | | Certain chemicals can be used in the illicit manufacture of explosives or to cause harm. |
Make that ALL chemicals. Ergo, ban ALL chemicals, except for use/misuse/marketing by Neoliberal Companies, of course... |
Cars with airbags have a few kgs of explosives in them...maybe the British government should ban airbags and recall all the cars?
Let's not get into the subject of FAEs: sugar/flour/organic dust explosions or flammable organic vapor (petrol...) explosions, or the poor Brits won't
be able to have sugar with their tea anymore!
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