JohnBee
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How to circulate solution without contamination?
As the title implies, I'd like to circulate a solution through a glass system so as to process and cool it. However, I can't subject the solution to
anything but glass during the processing phase let alone air.
And so I wanted to ask if there were any options that could circulate a solution through a system without outside contamination or is that asking to
much?
PS. I have a Peristaltic pump, but I'm not sure if there's tubing that could tolerate the solution temps that can go as high as 100c at times.
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Bot0nist
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If you could be a little more forthcoming as to the solution in question, and it's reactivities. For example, if it is just... say hot beer wort that
needs cooling without excess air exposure, then that is greatly different than something like a reactive and pyrophoric material.
If air from a pump is not an option, what about non reactive or inert gasses, like nitrogen or argon?
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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Mesa
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How much heat are you expecting the project to generate? And how much heat is it able to tolerate before FUBAR?
You can't just push an inert gas through the neck of the container without some decent effort setting up (assuming) the glass reaction vessel, and
while CO2/argon/etc. isn't exactly expensive, even a decent size tank will probably need refilling at least once mid-way through. Murphy's law
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BromicAcid
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Quote: Originally posted by JohnBee  | | PS. I have a Peristaltic pump, but I'm not sure if there's tubing that could tolerate the solution temps that can go as high as 100c at times.
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Depends on the perisaltic pump, depends on the tubing composition. I have on several occassions used the Masterflex Cole-Parmer pumps with PTFE
tubing throughout, even for the tubing at the pump head:
http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Masterflex_PTFE_tubing_set...
No contact but PTFE, I have used this tubing to pump things over 100C in the past without issue but before making an investment you should contact the
vendor to confirm. Of course this would only matter to you if you were working at a company and could justify spending a couple thousand dollars on a
new pump, head, and tubing 
Does it have to continuously circulate? Could you just transfer it once say via pressure through a coil of tubing in an ice bath? You could even
bend some glass tubing to do that.
Attachment: GH_600.pdf (1.3MB)
This file has been downloaded 320 times
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byko3y
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I was going to answer, but then changed my mind. Once again. Coz it's just another shit from the same man with reagents and conditions we have no idea
about.
Why somebody answers to those threads in the first place.
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JohnBee
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Excellent information. Will call and discuss.
| Quote: | | Does it have to continuously circulate? Could you just transfer it once say via pressure through a coil of tubing in an ice bath? You could even
bend some glass tubing to do that. |
I'm still exploring options at this stage though this particular solution needs cooling and agitation. And so a circulation and cooling system seems
like it could be ideal. - will need to conduct some tests and see how things look.
The ice bath will be my go-to approach.
That said, do you know if there's a vessel with inlet /outlet ports that could be used to circulate sub zero coolant around a reaction vessel?
[Edited on 5-6-2015 by JohnBee]
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JohnBee
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I can see where unknowns could derive frustration in cases such as these. Especially for those of you who have grown accustomed to working on open
projects. That said, I'd remind you that there are times when disclosure simply isn't an option at these levels of operation.
And so with this in mind, I'd kindly ask that you consider your voluntary participation prior to resorting to insults. - thx
[Edited on 5-6-2015 by JohnBee]
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JohnBee
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The temps can vary, though I haven't seen anything in excess of 105c
That said, I'm leaning toward the circulatory pump and specialized tubing which sounds like a good solution. - will update
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Praxichys
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Depending on the scale, you might be able to use a jacketed glass reactor and efficient overhead stirring. These are available from 1L to over 200L.
Not sure what your process entails (i.e. transfer through some apparatus which would require a pump) but for one-pot reactions that need cooling, you
can't really beat a good jacketed reactor.
http://www.chemglass.com/pages/New_Products_Reactors.asp
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JohnBee
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| Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys | Depending on the scale, you might be able to use a jacketed glass reactor and efficient overhead stirring. These are available from 1L to over 200L.
Not sure what your process entails (i.e. transfer through some apparatus which would require a pump) but for one-pot reactions that need cooling, you
can't really beat a good jacketed reactor.
http://www.chemglass.com/pages/New_Products_Reactors.asp |
Perfect!
And a beautiful apparatus as well. - there goes the rest of my budget :p
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subsecret
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You could immerse a heat exchanger in the reaction vessel; the inside of a large spiral condenser would work well.
Fear is what you get when caution wasn't enough.
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byko3y
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| Quote: Originally posted by JohnBee | | those of you who have grown accustomed to working on open projects. That said, I'd remind you that there are times when disclosure simply isn't an
option at these levels of operation. |
Those of us, who work on private projects, don't discuss them on public boards, are capable of making decisions about basic equipment, and have a
budget to spend it purchasing a required equipment for the very important private project.
Obviously you are not researching anything, because you are not capable of performing research, instead you prefer to ask people on the public board
to find the answers.
[Edited on 5-6-2015 by byko3y]
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IrC
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| Quote: Originally posted by byko3y | Those of us, who work on private projects, don't discuss them on public boards, are capable of making decisions about basic equipment, and have a
budget to spend it purchasing a required equipment for the very important private project.
Obviously you are not researching anything, because you are not capable of performing research, instead you prefer to ask people on the public board
to find the answers. |
Were you always an asshat or did you take lessons. My question stems from more threads than just this one. John could be a private inventor without
infinite resources (or small group), looking for ideas on a way to handle a problem who chose to ask advice from a group he has learned are capable of
tremendous insight and knowledge in many disciplines. Yet you choose to call him a liar with no personal knowledge about him. What he was doing is
perfectly acceptable here, what you are doing in this and many threads is not. He chooses to not throw away chances of making something which may have
value by limiting information. He was right, help him or not as one wishes. None of your business in any way and your attitude is not needed nor
wanted.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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JohnBee
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| Quote: Originally posted by subsecret | | You could immerse a heat exchanger in the reaction vessel; the inside of a large spiral condenser would work well. |
I considered something along these lines, but the cost was a deterrent.
That said, after some digging around, it looks like Praxichys' suggestion may work perfectly in this particular case.
Not to mention how awesome it looks! "dancing banana" 
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aga
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So many Egos here.
It is troubling that such brilliant minds are so easily blinded.
Anyway, just make the apparatus Circular and keep on rotating it and heating the bottom bit, assuming you need heating and are not adding reagent as
well as circulating it.
Make the glass piping small enough and you'll get the pumping action you require.
Gas evolution can be dealt with once per revolution with a tap, opened only at the azimuth.
Probably custom glass, but there you go.
Dynamics in action.
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Bot0nist
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No insults from me, John, and I do understand the need for some projects to be kept close to the chest. I was just trying to better answer your
question, is all. Good luck.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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aga
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If such projects are for Profit, then i would expect the operator to be competent enough to complete the project without resort to external help,
especially Free help.
One can Pay for such help, here and elsewhere.
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Magpie
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Air lift circulation is an effective way to circulate a liquid. But in your case the air (or other inert gas) would have to be very pure.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by JohnBee | | I can see where unknowns could derive frustration in cases such as these. Especially for those of you who have grown accustomed to working on open
projects. That said, I'd remind you that there are times when disclosure simply isn't an option at these levels of operation.
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Well that certainly sounds sketchy as hell.
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WGTR
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Regardless of the intentions of the OP, I think the question is an interesting one.
When stirring a beaker of water fast enough, a funnel develops in the center of the solution, and the outer edge of the rotating solution rises.
I would try taking advantage of the height difference between the outer and inner fluid levels, to achieve circulation through a coil or whatever.
This is just a rough idea, not particularly well thought-out. Solution turnover rate may be very low using a method like this, depending on the
backpressure of the glass coil.
As an FYI, glass-coated stir bars are available.
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JohnBee
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist | | No insults from me, John, and I do understand the need for some projects to be kept close to the chest. I was just trying to better answer your
question, is all. Good luck. |
You are correct. My post was more of a general statement and I should have been more specific, and so I apologize for that.
| Quote: | If such projects are for Profit, then i would expect the operator to be competent enough to complete the project without resort to external help,
especially Free help.
One can Pay for such help, here and elsewhere. |
Understandable. However, since this is a personal project funded entirely out of pocket and without profit, this simply doesn't apply here.
Though I will go as far as saying that I'm hoping my discovery will one day lead to something bigger in the medical field.
However, I'd also add that should I ever get recognized for this, that I'll be sure to mention all of the help I received from the science madness
forums along the way. 
| Quote: | | Well that certainly sounds sketchy as hell. |
Disclosing the product would undermine the potential value of my research and discovery.
Thanks to everyone who have offered help on this. You've been a great help.
[Edited on 6-6-2015 by JohnBee]
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AJKOER
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Here is an idea: In a vessel whose base is spherical apply sonic vibrations.
Apply cooling to the whole or partial vessel as its content is in motion.
Obviously no stirring or gaseous intrusion involved.
With respect to the equipment required to induce vibrations, a wide range of products currently on the market (many for health applications) appear to
be available. See, for example, https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=sonic+vibration+plate .
For those artistically inclined, see the video on sonic water: https://vimeo.com/68768890
[Edited on 7-6-2015 by AJKOER]
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aga
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Could you give us a general hint, such as OC, IOC, Automotive, Petrochemical etc ?
It'd be great if you'd update this thread whenever/with whatever you can, and give us some details after any patent is issued.
Edit: Oops. You already said Medical. Sorry.
[Edited on 7-6-2015 by aga]
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