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Doctor Cat
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Is Sigma-Aldrich mad?
850 dollars for 5 grams of palladium (II) acetate... RLY...
why is palladium II acetate is so damn expensive? is it really that difficult to make?
The first google search on the topic says that palladium (II) acetate can be made from reacting palladium (II) nitrate dihydrate with acous acetic
acid in the presence of an alkali metal acetate in a yield of about 90% without the presence of any palladium complex impurity...
Things like these makes me believe that people who decides the prices in Sigma are just a bunch of really bad bullies...
(Preparative synthesis of palladium(II) acetate: Reactions, intermediates, and by-products. DOI: 10.1134/S003602361110024X )
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aga
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It is a process called 'Making Money'.
There are many references on the 'net, and in my bank as well.
You do not HAVE to buy it - it's your Choice.
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Doctor Cat
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200 dollars for 1 kilogram of sodium hydroxide? even as analytical grade it is just ridiculous
[Edited on 10-08-2015 by Doctor Cat]
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Tsjerk
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The lab where I work orders certain dyes from them and from other big suppliers for "ridiculous" prices as well. 250 euro for 30 nMol of compound is
not unheard of. But the lab where I work does not have the means to make the dyes and at least when you buy them you are sure the compounds are pure
and functional.
The costs of an experiment together with the man hours invested in doing them greatly exceed that of the chemicals used in case what ever you do is
not correct. My lab is not equipped for making the things we buy for a lot of money, but we are good in doing stuff other labs cannot do... everything
has its price.
Besides, if you are doing experimental science, you already have so many variables you want to exclude, the professor usually doesn't mind spending a
couple of hundred more to trow out a couple more variables that could screw up your experiment.
250 euro for NaOH is a lot if you want to neutralize some waste acid, but not if you need 0.1 gram for a medical analytical measurement that could
possibly save a life.
edit: one of the reasons they can sell for these prices is also that they have nice secondaries: when I order before three in the afternoon they
deliver the next morning before ten, not something you need as a hobbyist but definitely nice when your main costumers are scientists who think up
their experiments on Monday and want to do them on Tuesday.
[Edited on 10-8-2015 by Tsjerk]
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phlogiston
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I used to buy lots and lots of 25 mg vials of a certain chiral derivatization reagent from Sigma-Aldrich at 30 Eur each. I bought hundreds over the
course of a year or two.
Then, they decided to stop selling it and the only alternative supplier of the stuff sold a hopelessly chirally impure product at twice the price.
I desperately needed it for my research.
Then, I found out who originally made the stuff for Sigma. I called them and they custom synthesised both stereoisomers for me with essentially
perfect purity for 100 euros for a full 5 grams of the stuff! In other words, Sigma-Aldrich charged 60 times as much...
But Tsjerk is right, equipment and chemicals is a minor expense compared to the cost of labour. It is hardly ever worth spending time finding the best
price for certain chemicals and definitely not worth synthesising everything you need yourself just to safe money. You'd never get any actual research
done (or at least your competitor will beat you to the discovery/publication). If I was not forced to look, I would have continued buying the small
vials from Sigma-Aldrich burning thousands of euro's a year without a second thought.
[Edited on 10-8-2015 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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AvBaeyer
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In an industrial setting you (almost) never make what you can buy. You cannot recapture the time spent on a failed prep. The chemical suppliers charge
so much because they know their products have time value for the purchaser. Also, they spend a lot of time and money sourcing chemicals, re-bottling
them into research amounts, and maintaining them in salable condition over long periods of time. Yes, prices look ridiculous, but these companies
provide an invaluable service and make money doing it.
AvB
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SupaVillain
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why would you buy sodium hydroxide from them when you can get that from lowes or ace hardware and like anywhere online for less than a tenth of that
price? Just realize that if you're not a company or if your company can handle having to synthesize some of your own chemicals, then it will always be
cheaper to do it yourself, there's also always labor involved, so of course almost anything will be cheaper DIY. Also healthcare is corrupt and wants
to keep paying it's buddy managers instead of their real workforce so they'll raise the price on everything that could ever be used in pharmaceutical
field, they've gotten to the point where they raise cost on all these non pharmaceutical things so that it doesn't seem as bad or crazy to be
outrageously expensive to buy medical grade chems. Also, sigma is a huge name, you're paying for the brand name, not just the chemical. (another thing
I massively disrespect, but the buyers are supporting it by still buying from them) Buy from someplace less popular and get the same thing for much
cheaper
[Edited on 11-8-2015 by SupaVillain]
Oh.
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Dr.Bob
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I buy some things from Aldrich, but not normally simple chemicals. But they have some areas where their prices are quite good, and for some labs,
being able to order everything from one supplier is easier, but likely expensive.
I have know some of the people who used to sell materials to Aldrich that were then resold. Now that the internet makes it much simpler to find
smaller companies and search the world for chemicals, it might be easier to find many of them from the original vendor, but now that many are in
China, it may not be easy or practical to buy small amounts from them. Plus you have almost no guarantee of every getting it or it being the right
stuff.
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BromicAcid
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Quote: Originally posted by SupaVillain  | | Just realize that if you're not a company or if your company can handle having to synthesize some of your own chemicals, then it will always be
cheaper to do it yourself, there's also always labor involved, so of course almost anything will be cheaper DIY. [Edited on 11-8-2015 by SupaVillain]
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You said it yourself, there's always labor involved. And unless your time is worthless, it's amazing how quickly those costs add up. I remember my
first time making phosphoric acid. I took a bag of bone ash from the gardening supply and mixed with water and added sulfuric acid. Made a foul
smelling slurry (which I still wonder about since it should have been burnt). The resulting mess refused to settle and took somewhere in the
neighborhood of 10 hours of my time (perhaps 60 hours overall) to filter, pulling it through a Buckner funnel, pouring off the top after it plugged.
Trying to use cheese cloth or allowing it to settle. Ending up with a mess that was 'mostly' filtered and then re-filtering it again. I ended up
with a gallon of liquid that I evaporated the water from (again, hours in the making) until I collected my 100 mL of brown liquid that seemed like it
might have contained some phosphoric acid but refused to act nicely in any of my reactions.
Failed runs waste reagents and time. It's great to make things from scratch but sometimes you have to bite the bullet.
Having worked for Aldrich now for 8 years, I can say it's not all peaches and cream from their point of view and even some of those expensive units
with crazy markups don't even cover the true cost which even for a re-pack can be spendy:
Initial cost to purchase the reagent
Cost for QC analysis
Cost for packaging (actually getting the material downpacked to a customer size and properly handled to exclude moisture/air)
Taxes on the material to sit on the shelf even without being sold (carrying cost)
Cost to get the material re-analyzed if it sits there too long
Cost to get the material re-packaged if it wrecks the bottle
Cost to dispose of the material if you order too much and only sell a portion
Cost to actually have a material handler pick the material if it does sell
Cost to properly package the material and get it shipped out to the buyer
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learningChem
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Corrupt companies in a corrupt and highly regulatd 'market', plus sellers like sigma more than likely sell a fair amount of stuff to governments
either directly or indirectly so they charge whatever they like.
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byko3y
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The actual reason why products from sigma-aldrich cost too much is because the cost of employes work and strict safety precautions which are the huge
expense in EU/US, while chinese can make the same stuff few times cheaper in case you have contacts with good supplier (there are companies with such
contacts that help to purchase chemicals).
Another reason somebody would like to purchase from sigma/alfa is because those companies provide extensive documentation for their products and
ensure the quality.
I remember some indian "researchers" who used to buy deionized water from sigma. The reason is simple - they just needed to report about spent moneys.
Also I can give you an example of schott duran vs chines manufacturers. The latter can produce the same stuff at least 2 times cheaper with the same
quality. But nobody forces you to buy duran's products.
So I can say for sure that everything sigma sells is overpriced, and in case EU/US did not protect their manufacturers, sigma would have been a small
company selling some specialized stuff. But nobody restricts you from purchasing from other suppliers. The main problem with chinese suppliers is
shipping cost. In my country there's a lot of distributing companies that order stuff from china and then resell it in smaller batches.
learningChem, correct, but it's not the only reason. Most international companies bribe to get their market in the countries with high level of
corruption. In fact in some countries there's no other way to sell your stuff - you are forced to bribe, otherwise you will not be able to sell
anything.
I can tell about local laboratories that they dont orders nothing from sigma, because it's expensive, while alfa offers the same slightly cheaper.
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phlogiston
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Another good reason to buy from Sigma-Aldrich or similar companies is that your scientific publication is more convincing (and more easily accepted
into a good journal) if the materials section says 'All chemicals were analytical grade and purchase from reputable companies X, Y and Z' rather than
'We everything ourselves or bought a bottle of household quality in the local supermarket and we have no idea regarding their purity'.
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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kecskesajt
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Take a look at L-glucose.Nice.
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Tsjerk
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@SupaVillain: Professionals buy from Sigma because then you know what is in the bottle. One contamination that screws up things will cost you ten
times more then the money you saved buying the NaOH from the hardware store. Labor, Labor, Labor.
@kecskesajt: 290 dollar for 20 microgram 
https://www.neb.com/products/s9105-snap-cell-tmr-star
[Edited on 11-8-2015 by Tsjerk]
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Praxichys
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Let's make cinnamon-sugar toast! I found a 100mg glucose reference standard for $163. We'll only need about 80 of them.
I share the frustration about the price of name-brand chems, but really you get what you pay for. I have had many a disappointment with "pottery
grade" or "hardware store grade" chemicals. However, I continue to use them since they are sometimes hundreds of times cheaper, and the reactions we
run are often very simple and cheap.
However, when you get into the big leagues and you have a target that requires 12 steps and has an overall yield of 1.2% on a good day, you sure as
hell will buy from Sigma before you waste weeks of synthesis finding out that penny-pinching your NaOH from the hardware store was a bad idea.
It would be cool if Sigma opened up a product line of "hobby-grade" chemicals. Not super pure or held to the same standards, but not designed to be
drain cleaner either. Just bulk, industrial grade chems of reasonable but not guaranteed purity. I think the liability is too great though. It's what
eBay is for.
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j_sum1
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You mean technical grade as opposed to analytical grade?
I am sure it has been done before.
The flip side of the argument is that there are some OTC products that are surprisingly pure. For example, hardware store hydrochloric acid where I
live seems to be pretty good. I tested some today because I needed to know its concentration. While I was at it I tested for iron impurities and got
nothing. I haven't had any occasion when it has done anything strange or unexpected and I suspect it is rather high purity. Anything OTC that is
crystallised as part of its production is probably going to be reasonable. Sucrose, oxalic acid, potassium bitartrate, sodium chloride, sodium
bicarbonate all spring to mind as items that are probably going to be pretty reliable. Of course I would love to have these tested to be certain but
in the meantime I proceed with a degree of confidence.
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byko3y
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Tsjerk, nothing would save your reagents from improper storage, and there's a lot of cheap suppliers of basic reagents like demineralized water, NaOH,
H2SO4, NaCl who afford a perfect quality of their products. In fact I have a supplier nearby who has his own quality ensurance, and his prices are
much lower than sigma ones.
Praxichys, "but really you get what you pay for" - yes, they pay for the brand - they get the brand. D&G.
"you have a target that requires 12 steps and has an overall yield of 1.2% on a good day" - then you probably already have a dedicated analytic
department for examination of reagents and products, just like every institution performing complex syntheses. HPLC, GC, MS, FTIR cost like 50-100k$
together, but there's no way you can do total synthesis without them.
"would be cool if Sigma opened up a product line of "hobby-grade" chemicals" - they already have one. I'm talking about 90-98% reagent grade products.
But the cost is a usual sigma's price. I have no idea who needs a reagent grade 97% magnesium sulfate for 120 euro/kg http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sial/208094?lang...
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Dr.Bob
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You should check out Strem, they have it for $258 for 5 g. And they sell very pure inorganics and catalysts.
http://www.strem.com/catalog/v/46-1781/51/palladium_3375-31-...
only $764 for 25 g, which is not bad, considering palladium metal is over $600/ounce now.
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RareEarth
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I believe the reason is entirely due to purity.
There is a big difference between 99.8-99.9% purity, and 99.999% purity, and so on. This difference is irrelevant for amateur chemists, but when
you're in research labs, that small bit of purity can make a huge difference. When you need serious purity, traditional methods just don't really cut
it unless you're willing to spend tedious time purifying.
On what AvBaeyer said, I have to partially disagree. I don't think many industrial settings that are doing chemistry are getting their supplies from
places like Sigma. Though, I don't consider private biotech research labs and University research as industrial - those guys have huge budgets and
private funding. Industrial are those guys buying 20-200 to several thousand L + at a time, and they're certainly not getting them from Sigma.
Sigma specializes in providing reagents for people whose work depends on an absolutely minimal amount of contaminants. They use extremely expensive
equipment to verify purity and to help purify various compounds, on a level that is very tedious to scale up to any significant amount. When they sell
all those reagents at such high prices, they are selling them to both profit and to pay for the time and expertise that went into insuring purity, and
the equipment, not to just fuck you over with their prices.
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phlogiston
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I think the main attractivenes of Sigma to research labs is their wide product range, and not extreme purity (which is certainly not always better
than other sources).
If you need something and you can't spend much time looking for it, it is extremely convenient to just go their website and find what you need 95% of
the time.
[Edited on 11-8-2015 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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Doctor Cat
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This is a much more reasonable price, even accessible for the amateur. Thanks Dr.Bob
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byko3y
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phlogiston, Chinese are the leaders when speaking about products range, so your argument is invalid.
RareEarth, that's what I was talking about. Sigma should have been a small specialized lab for preparing high purity chemicals. The reason why sigma
is much more than that is solely political.
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Tsjerk
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@byko3y: With contamination I meant those coming from the supplier (in the case you buy them at the hardware store for example).
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byko3y
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Tsjerk, first of all, when you buy a NaOH and you need it to be pure, you should ensure that it originates from some respectable manufacturer. Second,
you should look at its packaging. When it's from a good supplier and packed well - then you can be sure it's of good quality.
But even worst samples of NaOH I bought were 90-95% pure.
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phlogiston
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| Quote: Originally posted by byko3y | | phlogiston, Chinese are the leaders when speaking about products range, so your argument is invalid. |
Do "Chinese" have a website where I can quickly find what I need?
Ofcourse the Chinese sell a lot of different things, its a huge country with a lot of different businesses. So do 'Europeans' or 'Americans'.
I still think it is a valid argument.
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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