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nitro-genes
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Marsh
Any ideas what outcome may result from this? (It is 16mm diameter spun-formed to a closed tip) |
That is really a brilliant idea!  This would make the spinning even more easy
and with standoff included. I estimate the thickness of the pipe about 1 mm, so using a copper pipe with a diameter of about 30 mm would give the
optimal liner diameter/thickness ratio...
PS: Your spinnings do need some more practice by the looks of it!  (Just kidding
 )
| Quote: | Originally posted by Marsh
...still envy Nitro for his perfect copper cones |
The quest is the glory...
[Edited on 26-8-2006 by nitro-genes]
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Boomer
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As promised some info on the melt-cast. Admittedly only a paste from some of my APC posts, some more tests were done (including GN) afterwards,
hopefully I'll find the time to add that info later.
/Paste:
I did not want to put this in the ANxx thread because of its bad reputation. And it would be lost in APAN posts anyway.
It is about melt/castable mixes based on ammonium nitrate *other* than those with TNT (where AN is only suspended). Urbanski has a few pages about
this, but all were with mildly exotic things like ethylenediamine dinitrate, dicyandiamide etc. He concludes they are all very dense and hard to det
without adding solid HEs in suspension.
I tried AN/HDN and AN/HDN/NaN before but did not get the melting point below 120C, too high for the HDN (smell). Now adding urea nitrate, I was quite
surprised when a simple mix of equal parts of the four melted after seconds of applying a lighter flame to the test tube. Hell I had not even put the
thermometer in, it was supposed to just pre-warm it slightly.
A better test showed that mp is approx 70-80C, but solidification is in stages. At 60C it gets less liquid, at 50C sticky, at 40C it forms a clump
that makes "plock" sounds against stone, below 30C that turns to "klack" sounds. Not scientific but you get the point.
Using 30% each of AN/UN and 20% of HDN/NaN lead to a better OB (-2%) and all temps were 10C higher. It can still be made in a water bath, and *if* it
ignites it is tame compared to hot candy propellant.
That was the second keyword here. In case we cannot det these mixes (though I will try, if needed with 20% RDX added) - what if I just invented a new
rocket propellant? Anyone try, perhaps with Al added? This might get moved if it never dets but propels well...
Yesterday I tried without sodium nitrate, to have all-gas output (no Na2O etc). OB was optimised towards CO only, otherwise I guess it melts too high
(too much AN). A mix of 40% AN and 30% each of UN/HDN (OB -2.6% for CO) melted at *around* 100C. At 105C it was quite liquid, and down to 90C you
could mould it (like RC candy). It got rapidly harder below that, unlike the 1:1:1:1 mix with NaN which you could form by hand at a non-ouch temp, and
which got rock hard at <30C.
A strand of 40/30/30 burned in the open with hissing and a yellow flame. With NaN it did *not* do that, but dropped down and burned in puddles only
with more heating. I will play with the percentages today, to get the mp down just a tid so a water bath gets useable for casting. You might notice I
am moving towards propellant more and more. Not that I discarded the idea to det it sometime, but could someone calculate the ISP of this stuff? I
start to love it, no oil bath, no mad stirring for fear of overheating, you can even watch TV while it melts in a pot with water
Urbanski gives some mixes, e.g. 60-65% AN, 10% NaN, 5% dicyandiamide or 65-67% AN, 10-12% NaN, 3% Na-Acetat. Rest is TNT to get going at high density.
These melt at 105-110C. Or 6/2/2 AN/GN/NG (130C), better 60/22.5/17.5 (eutectic, 113C). With AN/UN/HDN I got slightly below 100C, with additional NaN
down to 80C. I hoped this last nitrate could be replaced with an organic nitrate, giving all gasses.
BTW I tested the cast comp of AN/UN/HDN/NaN with addition of 25% RDX, in a 14/16mm dia pipe 40mm long, both ends open, 2g MHN cap in cast cavity at
the top. Punched a clean hole through a steel plate. *Surprisingly* brisant for something that's 75% nitrates! Hopefully I can upload the pic today.
Note: AP here means ammonium picrate. I'm no raghead in palestine ...
/End paste.
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Marsh
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I have a program which should calculate theoretical ISP. It is on a cd so I must find it first (if not I know people who can).
The question here as to whether or not it would make a desireable propellant against APCP is in its comparative elastic modulus.
If this can yield a lower elastic modulus (or near that of APCP), it may fair well if ISP's are indeed high. The fact is that APCP is so easy to make
that this may not be desireable with it components required (again, unless ISP's go through-the-roof). The problem with propellant like KN/sugar are
mainly in the modulus. The motor grain becomes the "case" if it is not free floating, and cracking occurs much easier. This of coarse destroys a
motor.
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nitro-genes
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Having read your post, I was so excited that I decided to try and determine if these meltcast compositions are sensitive to detonation without the
addition of a dispersed crystaline HE. Having no NaN available at the moment, I decided to go with the 40% AN and 60% of UN/HDN composition that you
mentioned...
To make things even more easy, I added urea and hexamin to the AN straight from the package, assuming UN and HDN would be formed during the meltcast
operation anyway. Melting was done in a small teflon coated pan (great for pouring!) on a electric heater. The mixture started to melt around 110 deg.
C, and was kept at a slightly higher temperature until no more evolution of ammonia was noticed. No smell of formaldehyde was noticed, which I have
smelled occasionally when melting HDN. Upon cooling the mixture remained slighly waxy, probably due to the water present from the reaction...
I filled two 50 ml, 1 inch wide, plastic culture tubes with 35 ml of the meltcast. One tube was filled with the meltcast alone, the other with a few %
microballoons added to the meltcast to give a reduced density of about 1,4 g/cc. The remaining 15 ml was filled with 20 grams of semtex as a booster.
Both tubes were detonated against a 0.5 cm thick steel plate. No damage was visible to the steel plates, although the bang was harder than was to be
expected from 20 grams of semtex alone, probaly due to some partial detonation...
Adding 5-10% of aluminium (carefull with this at these temperatures!) could boost sensitivity somewhat and the presence of the water may have reduced
the sensitivity, but it is doubtfull you can achieve the full potential of these meltcasts at max density easily...
Their use as a 20-30% castable binder for PETN/RDX is very interesting though, and is put to the test very soon! Firing one of my standard shaped
charges with this composition can give an indication of the C-J pressure produced and is on top of my list. One of the things that I noticed is that
there is no"cracking" of these meltcasts during cooling which is perfect...
[Edited on 30-8-2006 by nitro-genes]
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nitro-genes
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Sorry about the double post, these eutectic mixtures are just very interesting. 
Just finished reading the los alamos tech report about AN eutectics, and found some information...
Fisrt of all, it seems that directly adding the amine bases to the AN instead of dry fusing all the nitrates together influences the sensitivity and
performance considerably. Plate dent tests reduced almost 50% for some of the compositions mentioned! Probably, like mentioned before, because of the
reaction water which is difficult to eliminate from the meltcast. Unfortunately, the part about the direct or dry fusing process in the report is not
scanned very well...
They also mention some compositions containing potassium nitrate. One of the things that strikes me is that even weight percentages of only 7% KN mean
a 20% reduction of the VoD, probably due to the inert K+ ion.
You were thinking about replacing the NaN by some organic nitrate, have you thought about using methylamine nitrate? This would be one possible,
completely OTC option left to try, although for oxygen balance the ratio's should be changed somewhat...
The critical diameter for the AN/EDDN eutectic is extremely high, more than 7 cm is mentioned. For the AN/ADNT eutectics this is 7 fold lower. This
probably is why the charges made in the above post failed to detonate completely. Since it is very probable that most of these meltcasts have critical
diameters in excess of 5 cm, adding a crystalline explosive having a much smaller critical diameter, like RDX or PETN is propably the only way of
getting the critical diameter down to more reasonable figures. The report mentions these combined meltcasts with RDX to be completely stable though...
AN/ADNT has a VoD of 7800 m/s and performs equally to composition B in the plate dent test. AN/EDDN has a VoD of 6600 m/s and performance should be
comparable with TNT. A meltcast composition using comparable organic nitrates , like UN, HDN, MAN, GN, without any inorganic nitrate should be no
exception and would offer an extremely easy meltcast composition, comparable to TNT based meltcasts without painfull nitration reactions or the
hazards involved with ETN meltcasts for example...
Corrosion of metal containers/liners and hygroscopicity are one of the few drawbacks though...
[Edited on 30-8-2006 by nitro-genes]
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Rosco Bodine
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Picric Acid is extremely soluble in nitromethane , IIRC
about 75% PA content of the solution at room temperature . This would likely be interesting if
poured onto ammonium perchlorate or ammonium nitrate
in a quantity appropriate to form an O balanced mixture .
A similarly interesting composition might be formed by prewarming a packed cannister of fine crystalline ammonium perchlorate or ammonium nitrate ,
and then
pouring onto it the molten eutectic of picric acid and
the dinitrated product of paradichlorobenzene moth crystals . The melt should wick into the spaces between
the warm crystals by capillary action , and then as everything slowly cools and solidifies , a sensitive and
dense solid composition should result . See attached
patent for melting point curve concerning this type picric
acid composition . I have done no experiments with
synthesis of the dinitrodichlorobenzene , which could also
possibly function as a sensitizer for usual kinepak AN
mixtures . It seems probable that this material could
be easily made via the solid nitrate and H2SO4 method
as is used for picric acid , and this has been reported
for the monochlorobenzenes , so it is likely possible
also for the dichlorobenzenes which should be even easier to nitrate and under even milder conditions
than for picric acid . Indeed the paradichlorobenzene
may be more easily nitrated all the way to its trinitro form than is the case for picric acid , I would have to check
the comparison of the effect of substituted groups like
chlorine on the difficulty of introducing nitro groups ,
but at first glance it would seem the difficulty for trinitration of paradichlorobenzene would be intermediate
with regards to phenol and resorcinol , for example a bit
more difficult than styphnic acid and a bit less difficult
than picric acid ....somewhere between the two . But
to achieve the lesser dinitration should be relatively easy , something similar or perhaps a bit easier than
dinitrotoluene . In fact dinitrotoluene is another possible
candidate for these sorts of eutectic or solution explosive fuels .
Extreme caution should be used concerning the smoke and vapors which are produced by explosives containing dintrodichlorobenzene , as a byproduct of
such explosions
is highly toxic phosgene gas . Alternative mixtures not containing nitrated chlorobenzenes would not have this toxic
byproduct . Some mixture of picric acid with other materials
which could lower its melting point , nitrocresols , nitronaphthalene(s) , nitrotoluenes , nitroxylenes , could be safer in regards to toxicity .
These variations on the kinepak method of wetting the
crystalline oxidizer with an explosive fuel would likely
be cap sensitive , while still having good density like
the melt casts , and in smaller charges would likely
perform better .
[Edited on 30-8-2006 by Rosco Bodine]
Attachment: US1366048 Eutectic Picric Acid Composition.pdf (212kB)
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Nicodem
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
It seems probable that this material [dinitrodichlorobenzene] could be easily made via the solid nitrate and H2SO4 method as is used for picric acid ,
and this has been reported for the monochlorobenzenes , so it is likely possible also for the dichlorobenzenes which should be even easier to nitrate
and under even milder conditions than for picric acid . Indeed the paradichlorobenzene may be more easily nitrated all the way to its trinitro form
than is the case for picric acid , I would have to check the comparison of the effect of substituted groups like chlorine on the difficulty of
introducing nitro groups , but at first glance it would seem the difficulty for trinitration of paradichlorobenzene would be intermediate with regards
to phenol and resorcinol , for example a bit more difficult than styphnic acid and a bit less difficult than picric acid ....somewhere between the two
. But to achieve the lesser dinitration should be relatively easy , something similar or perhaps a bit easier than dinitrotoluene .
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Actually, the Cl substituent on benzene directs electrophilic substitutions (like nitrations) by deactivation as opposed to -OH or -OR substituents
that direct by strong activation. With -OH the very strong mesomeric electron donating effect (M+) prevails over the inductive electron withdrawing
effect (I-). But unlike this, with the halogens, like Cl, the M+ effect is weaker than the stronger I- effect. The result is that the I- effect
deactivates all positions, but the weaker M+ arising from the unshared electron pairs still manages to "de-deactivate" the ortho/para positions to
some extent. Hence, the Cl substituents still directs to ortho/para, but those positions become less activated (chlorobenzene less reactive than
benzene, as an example).
I don't know if I made this clear, but those interested can read more about it themselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophilic_aromatic_substitu...
http://www.cem.msu.edu/~reusch/VirtualText/benzrx1.htm
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mwalter/web_05/year2/arom2/subst_effe...
http://employees.oneonta.edu/knauerbr/226lects/226_aromrxns_...
Anyway, the consequence of all this, is that p-dichlorobenzene is quite more difficult to dinitrate than toluene and much, much more difficult than
the trinitration of phenol or resorcinol.
I think mononitration with a normal nitrating mixture (HNO3/H2SO4) should occur relatively easy, perhaps already at temperatures of 40-80°C. However
since the so gained NO2 group strongly deactivates the aromatic ring for further nitration, dinitration would demand more extreme conditions. I would
assume it should proceed with a satisfactory speed only at above 100°C. Stronger nitration mixtures would, of course, perform better and a lower
temperature should do. At the end, only a literature search can give more details, or alternatively wasting time and material with several
experiments.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
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Boomer
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Not only did I *think* about using MAN, I already *tried* it. The same for GN. My notes are burried somewhere at home though, sorry.
Especially if combined MAN+GN lower the mp so much that alkali nitrates become redundant, whether they slow the mix down as much as 20% or not. I
doubt this is generally the case, look at the VoD of EAK/NEAK.
I did not find NQ to be good at lowering mp below 120C, so did not test it in the mix. It is probably a sensitizer, being more sensitive and brisant
than GN, but likely much less effective than RDX.
BTW what do you mean with ADNT? It can be amino-dinitro-toluene, or an ammonium salt of dinitro-triazole. Is that *the* LosAlamosTechnicalReport you
speak of? I have one, but IIRC it has two parts, one by HE, the second by property, and both about pure HEs only, plus Comp-A/B/C + some PBXs. Did I
overread it?
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nitro-genes
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I was mainly talking about :
Index part 4: LA-UR-81-917 Eutectic composite explosives containing ammonium nitrate
and
Index part 3: LA-9267 Investigation of the physical and explosives properties of the eutectic explosive ammonium nitrate/ammonium 3,5-dinitro
1,2,4-triazolate. (ADNT)
The first one contains some data about AN/EDDN and AN/EDDN/KN mixtures, like VoD's, detonation pressure and plate dent tests, the latter one is mainly
about AN/ADNT, so not as interesting from a practical point of view...
[Edited on 31-8-2006 by nitro-genes]
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Rosco Bodine
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@Nicodem
What you are saying about the Chlorine substituent hindering substitution of nitro groups more than for
unsubstituted Hydrogen , contradicts the activity charted
for substituted groups in COPAE , so this could be another
typo like has been found in Urbanski and Fedoroff also for
many things . Many of these errors have turned up so if this is another one it would be no surprise . We should probably have a " literature
corrections " section for the
edification and humiliation of the authors/proofreaders/publishers who are caught in indiscretion by the ruthless " peer review " found here in this
forum .
I haven't tried nitrating these chlorinated benzenes to observe the effect of hinderance or promotion of nitration . These materials are very toxic
and also irritants and personally I would favor experiments with the methyl substituted materials like toluene or xylene , which are toxic enough but
easier to work with from a handling standpoint . Also the nitronaphthalenes are interesting .
Fedoroff has charted an Ammonium Nitrate - Calcium Nitrate eutectic 71:29 mp. 111C .
Sorbitol might be interesting as a non-explosive fuel
which could be soluble in such a melt . Ethylene glycol
is another possibility . Powdered charcoal could be helpful in such mixtures.
I would have to review the literature on this to be sure ,
but IIRC , there can be a further lowering of the mp of
such mixtures by inclusion of various other components .
IIRC , one of the schemes utilized addition of lime and sulfur to the melt , and other things like methylamine nitrates from the " formit " reaction
of formaldehyde and ammonium nitrate . Other possible additives are glycine , urea , and urea nitrate . These compositions at cast density were not
cap sensitive . Foamed casts or the granulated materials were cap sensitive .
It would seem likely however that if such low melting oxidizing explosive salt mixtures which were oxygen rich were then blended with a molten
explosive fuel like
for example dintrotoluene , to form an emulsion of
the two melts , essentially a waterfree or very low water content emulsion , that cap sensitivity might be achieved
even at high density , as these emulsions approach the
intimate mixture condition of Sprengel type explosives .
Certain substances which might act as detonation catalysts or emulsifiers might need to be included to
achieve cap sensitivity . There are a few patents
concerning these type emulsion explosives . I can't recall
the specific one , but I do remember there was one emulsifier which was particularly efficient , so that only
a gentle stirring of the heated mixture together , hand mixing with a paddle resulted in an immediate emulsion ,
and no high shear mixing was required . But I think that
particular patent was a " low-water " content emulsion ,
not a " no-water " melt-in-fuel type of emulsion .
The thing that stood out about these type compositions is
that they were high velocity , hard rock blasting , more brisant explosives than usual ANFO , more like the
kinepak type compositions , but cheaper because they
contained no nitromethane . And they were cartridged
compositions ready for use , storage stable for years ,
some of them even waterproof to the extent of being
useful as submerged charges . And many of these
emulsion compositions are a plastic putty like consistency at ordinary temperature .
Anyway there are several things going on at once in these sorts of melts , where you can have varying sorts of miscibility of the phases at different
temperatures ,
and how they solidify , and what is their stability on storage afterwards . Some mixtures are great for a few days storage , and then deteriorate
rapidly . So what
is a really good mixture of this sort would be of great
commercial value to the mining industry , and has been the object of a lot of research over the years .
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Nicodem
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A bit off topic, but I stumbled into the attached paper while searching for some other ones and remembered this discussion about dinitrating
“p-dichlorobenzene moth balls”. So I thought to attach it here in case it is of any importance to anybody. It describes the dinitrating procedure
for all three dichlorobenzenes as well giving references to other papers on p-dichlorobenzene nitration.
J. Chem. Soc., Trans., 1904, 85, 865 – 870. DOI: 10.1039/CT9048500865
LXXXVIII.—The nitration products of the isomeric dichlorobenzenes.
Percival Hartley and Julius Berend Cohen
Attachment: The nitration products of the isomeric dichlorobenzenes.pdf (328kB)
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…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
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Rosco Bodine
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It seems pretty well confirmed now that the COPAE
charted effect of various substituents
on promoting or hindering nitrations is in error
with regards to the activity of chlorine .
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Boomer
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Better late than never, here some compositions. I did not test all of them, only the ones where temps are given:
Melt/Cast Compositions using Ammonium Nitrate as a melting component, as opposed to those where it is suspended as a solid in e.g. molten TNT.
No. / %AN / %HDN / %UN / %NaN / %KN / %MAN / %GN / %NQ / %RDX / PP / SP / MP / HP / OB
1 / 25 / 25 / 25 / 25 / - / - / - / - / - / 80 / 60 / 50 / 40 / -4.4
2 / 30 / 20 / 30 / 20 / - / - / - / - / - / 95 / 80 / 70 / 50 / -2
3 / 40 / 30 / 30 / - / - / - / - / - / - / 105 / 90 / 80 / 60 / -17
4 / 25 / 30 / 30 / 10 / - / - / - / - / - / 90 / 70 / 60 / 50 / -15
5 / 27.5 / 20 / 20 / 7.5 / - / - / 25 / - / - / 95 / 85 / 75 / 50 / -13
11 / 33.3 / 22.2 / 33.3 / 11.1 / - / - / - / - / - / 85 / 70 / 50 / 40 / -7.6
12 / 30 / 20 / 30 / 10 / - / - / - / - / 10 / 85 / 70 / 50 / 40 / -9
40 / 50 / 10 / 10 / 10 / - / 10 / - / - / 10 / ? / ? / ? / ? / +0.7
50 / 40 / 15 / 15 / 10 / 5 / 5 / - / - / 10 / 80 / 65 / 50 / <40 / -1.9
60 / 20 / 10 / 10 / 10 / 10 / 10 / 10 / 10 / 10 / ? / ? / ? / ? / -7
61 / 30 / 10 / 10 / 10 / - / 10 / 10 / 10 / 10 / ? / ? / ? / ? / -9
62 / 20 / 15 / 15 / - / - / 15 / 15 / 10 / 10 / ? / ? / ? / ? / -23
63 / 30 / 10 / 20 / - / - / 10 / 10 / 10 / 10 / ? / ? / ? / ? / -14
63 / 20 / 10 / 20 / - / - / 10 / 20 / 10 / 10 / ? / ? / ? / ? / -19
AN = ammonium nitrate, HDN = hexamin dinitrate, UN = urea nitrate, NaN = sodium nitrate, KN = potassium nitrate, MAN = methylamine nitrate, GN =
guanidine nitrate, NQ = nitroguanidine, RDX should be clear ;-)
PP = pouring point, when the melt runs out in a stream at least pencil-thin.
SP = softening point, when it can be poured in 'blobs' (porridge consistency).
MP = moulding point, when it is still hand-mouldable, and can be spoon-loaded and dowel-pressed.
HP = hardening point, when it cannot be formed but breaks on bending.
OB = oxygen bilance for CO2 and water. Value for CO is consistently 10-13% better.
No mixture is a true eutectic, hence the broad temperature range for softening and melting. All form *some* eutectic melt on heating, in which the
'left over' particles are suspended. For this reason all salts must be finely ground if the low pouring temperatures will be made use of. On further
heating, the mixtures will finally form a clear melt (apart from suspended RDX). This should be cooled rapidly to avoid formation of big crystals
which lower sensitivity, and also to avoid settling of the first (non-eutectic) crystals that form. All detonation tests were done with charges
press-loaded at temperatures between the' softening point' and 'moulding point' given above.
No.5 is the one that punched the hole in the pic. No12 did not det from 2g MHN in a 10mm column (metal pipe 1mm walls), but went high order in a 20mm
column.
100g of No.50 are awaiting an SC test, while the 60ies are in preparation.
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nitro-genes
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Boomer
No mixture is a true eutectic, hence the broad temperature range for softening and melting. All form *some* eutectic melt on heating, in which the
'left over' particles are suspended. For this reason all salts must be finely ground if the low pouring temperatures will be made use of.On further
heating, the mixtures will finally form a clear melt (apart from suspended RDX). This should be cooled rapidly to avoid formation of big crystals
which lower sensitivity, and also to avoid settling of the first (non-eutectic) crystals that form. |
Thanks for pointing that out.
Tried the first composition yesterday, this time with freshly prepared and completely dry crystals of UN and HDN. I was surprised it did not form a
clear melt at 100 deg C., while as the direct fushion of urea and hexamin with AN did form a clear melt at this temperature. Water from the reaction
is just another compound entering the eutectic probably, lowering the melting temperature even further...
The dry fushion of AN/HDN/UN/NaN yielded a very strong and amorphous, plastic like material, that could be bend only minimally at room temperature
before breaking. No ammonia or formaldehyde smell or whatsoever.
Though I still doubt the storage ability somewhat. HDN is just such a bitch. drying or casting temperature a little too high, or small excess of NA in
it's synthesis and soon you will be welcomed with the unpleasant smell of formaldehyde and the formation of methylamine, guanidine, ammonia, formic
acid and god knows what more...
Is there no dissolution of RDX at all? Anyway, I'm glad to hear the critical diameter with only 10% of RDX is down to less than 2 cm. Do you still
have that VoD measuring device btw? That would be pretty conclusive concerning it's potential, though not as much fun as a shaped charge of course!
Some ethylenediamine is on it's way, so EDDN is another possible nitrate that I will give a try...
Oh btw Boomer, if you are looking for a safe, cheap and powerfull rocketpropellant you should really read US patent 6055910.. According to the
patent, the mixture is powerfull enough to make it into space!
[Edited on 15-9-2006 by nitro-genes]
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Microtek
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| Quote: |
Oh btw Boomer, if you are looking for a safe, cheap and powerfull rocketpropellant you should really read US patent 6055910.. According to the patent,
the mixture is powerfull enough to make it into space!
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What kind of deranged individual would apply for a patent about using your farts for rocket propellant ( or more accurately spud-gun propellant )?
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nitro-genes
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Yeah, you must be a real loon to apply for such a patent, not to mention these patents aren't exactly cheap...
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waxman
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Rosco- Tried your AP/MEKP 50/50 mix. Appeared that the good, oily component sank to the bottom, opposite of my MEKP makings. Is this normal?
Sorry if slightly off-topic.
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Rosco Bodine
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Yes .
BTW , an uninvestigated possibility exists for a tertiary eutectic of TCAP / MEKP / toluene in which * hopefully *
the TCAP would greatly predominate , MEKP would be a
much lesser proportion , and then the toluene a
very small proportion . It might be interesting
to have a TCAP composition which could be melted
in a moderately warm water bath , if it would solidify uneventfully as a glass or a stable microcrystalline form , alone or in admixture with an
oxidizing energetic salt ....
but such experiments would be inherently hazardous .
Anyway , it seems also possible that addition of a few percent of toluene could also allow for a liquid more heavily
loaded with dissolved TCAP . This is simply an idea which may or may not have any value , but could be worth looking at if you are experimenting with
such mixtures .
[Edited on 19-9-2006 by Rosco Bodine]
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Marsh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
...It might be interesting
to have a TCAP composition which could be melted
in moderately warm water , if it would solidify uneventfully
as a glass or a stable microcrystalline form , alone
or in admixture with an oxidizing energetic salt .... |
Hmm, like AN+water and then evaporate the water?
I wouldn't want to play with that chunk when dry however...
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Rosco Bodine
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No , I am not saying to mix it with water , just relating
the expected low temperature for melting to what would be water bath temperatures . I'll edit the post to make it more clear what I meant .
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quicksilver
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CHLORATOTRIMERCURIACETALDEHYDE ?
A chlorate acetaldehyde
Has any heard of this being used commercially? There is some material from the USBoM and some material from the FTP.
Mercuric Nitrate / Sodium Chlorate solution (etoh) has acetylene passsed through it yielding a micro crystaline solid of high friction-impact
sensitivity. Is reputed to initiate PETN. Appears to be simple and cheap. Must be either too sensitive or have no real shelf life....(?)
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Marsh
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
No , I am not saying to mix it with water , just relating
the expected low temperature for melting to what would be water bath temperatures . I'll edit the post to make it more clear what I meant .
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Doh! Yeah I should've caught that myself, as you'd be left with a low density structure if water was used in it to evap. (My newbie-ness still shows
greatly; give it time)
Is an interesting idea though, although it would be such a very hazardous solid when finished, without need for a detonatorof coarse. I bet quite
brisant none-the-less.
[Edited on 19-9-2006 by Marsh]
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Axt
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Eh... this topic is very random.
| Quote: | Originally posted by quicksilver
CHLORATOTRIMERCURIACETALDEHYDE ?
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You might be able to glean something from these articles, I dont think I've attached them before. Unfortunately the interesting ones are in german.
Theres quite a range of explosive "mercarbides" capable of forming nitrate/chlorate/perchlorate salts.
Attachment: mercarbides.zip (2.5MB)
This file has been downloaded 569 times
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quicksilver
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Axt
Eh... this topic is very random.
Theres quite a range of explosive "mercarbides" capable of forming nitrate/chlorate/perchlorate salts. |
I know, I'm sorry. I just got some brain scatter. Thank you though, That was really new stuff.
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Rosco Bodine
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Semicarbazide perchlorate is something which I don't think has been mentioned and could be worth investigation . It is supposedly stable , high
energy ,
and perfect oxygen balance .
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