| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
..
14 |
Upsilon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 392
Registered: 6-10-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Er, I just added the lithium citrate solution to the calcium nitrate solution, and I got absolutely no precipitate. What the heck happened? Is calcium
citrate actually appreciably soluble unlike Wikipedia says?
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  | | Er, I just added the lithium citrate solution to the calcium nitrate solution, and I got absolutely no precipitate. What the heck happened? Is calcium
citrate actually appreciably soluble unlike Wikipedia says? |
It really is NOT a good idea to try and carry out these displacement reactions between compounds that have some solubility, like calcium
citrate.
Citrates are the salts of a weak triprotic acid and their solubility is likely to be very pH dependent. Represent citric acid by
H<sub>3</sub>Ct, so Ca citrate would be the Ca<sup>2+</sup> salt of Ct<sup>3-</sup>. As the conjugated base of a
weak acid, Ct<sup>3-</sup> is a weak base:
Ct<sup>3-</sup>(aq) + H<sub>2</sub>O(l) < === > HCt<sup>2+(aq)</sup> + OH<sup>-</sup>(aq)
pH affects the form of the citrate ions present, thus also citrate solubility. Check the pH of your mixed solution.
[Edited on 8-10-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A much simpler way is to take advantage of the modest solubility of LiCO3 and the high insolubility of CaCO3:
Ca(NO3)2(aq) + 2 LiCO3(s,aq) === > CaCO3(s) + 2 LiNO3(aq)
Simply simmer a slurry of LiCO3(s,aq) with a Ca(NO)2 solution (stoichiometric amounts) and the slurry will precipitate the Ca as carbonate, leaving
the Li in solution as the highly soluble nitrate. Filter and recrystallise the LiNO3.
[Edited on 8-10-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Upsilon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 392
Registered: 6-10-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Well that's an issue, I don't have any pH indicators. Even if I did, I don't know how I would adjust it without screwing with the contents of the
final product. Luckily I did this in small scale to test it so it's not a big deal at all. I think I can make the direct reaction between lithium
carbonate and calcium nitrate work.
EDIT: Just ordered a pH meter, don't know why I waited so long to get one. I'll save the solution so I can test it when it gets here, but I'm still
going to use the other method to make lithium nitrate.
[Edited on 8-10-2015 by Upsilon]
|
|
|
Upsilon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 392
Registered: 6-10-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Today I did a quick silicon dioxide thermite since I was frustrated with the fact that I have been making almost no progress on any of this. I found
some extra time today, so I used the method entailed here:
http://thehomescientist.blogspot.com/2010/03/experiment-sili...
I didn't use very much (4.5g SiO2, 6g S, and 5g Al). I put it in a small aluminum foil boat and then put the whole thing into my makeshift thermite
reactor made of bricks. It burned spectacularly and calmly for at least 30 seconds. I was left with a single mass of slag that I chiseled apart when
it cooled. I put the pieces in water to get rid of the majority of the slag (Al2S3), and then moved them to conc. HCl for a brief time. I got some
decent lumps which I was initially sure were silicon metal, but I have a hunch that they are just more pieces of slag. They don't really split apart
like the other slag but they degrade easily - small bits are falling off even from being knocked around the vial I'm storing them in. The lumps are
dark gray and quite rough, yet they shimmer in light. They certainly don't look at all like the image on that website. The material I saved weighs
0.35g. Not sure what to make of all this, anyone have any thoughts?
|
|
|
elementcollector1
International Hazard
Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: Molten
|
|
Sounds like alumina slag to me - are they a cohesive mass, or sort of sintered in appearance? At any rate, your reaction went forward - there's got to
be some silicon in there...
Don't worry about losing your silicon - if any formed, it won't be too badly attacked by the HCl. You might get an unappealing gray powder, but it'll
still be pure silicon.
I bought some fumed silica as part of a failed shear-thickening fluid experiment last month - I'm tempted to take it home and try out this reaction on
it.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
@Upsilon:
These very small amounts don't work well. Minimum 100 g of mix (approx.). Small amounts of mix don't allow enough time for metal/slag separation and
also lose far too much heat. 'Go large' with this one!
@EC1:
Si isn't attacked by HCl at all. It's not a metal (it's a metalloid) and doesn't have any 'loose' electrons in it's valence shell.
[Edited on 12-10-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Upsilon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 392
Registered: 6-10-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | @Upsilon:
These very small amounts don't work well. Minimum 100 g of mix (approx.). Small amounts of mix don't allow enough time for metal/slag separation and
also lose far too much heat. 'Go large' with this one!
|
I figured as much. I guess the small mixtures just don't have enough mass to retain heat long enough to allow the molten metal to join together?
(EDIT: Duh, I didn't even see that this is exactly what yiu said) I did notice a couple of tiny (2mm diameter max) perfect silvery spheres - I suppose
these are the nice pure silicon samples I'm after. It seems wasteful to use so much chemical to make a lot of silicon when I only need a gram or two
at most, but if that's what must be done then so be it. At any rate, I guess all I managed to do was stink up the property with H2S.
I'll be redoing this experiment as well as the titanium dioxide thermite this weekend (first days off in weeks!). I may also get to the lithium
nitrate electrolysis, the design of which I still need confirmation on (scroll up).
[Edited on 12-10-2015 by Upsilon]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon |
I figured as much. I guess the small mixtures just don't have enough mass to retain heat long enough to allow the molten metal to join together? I did
notice a couple of tiny (2mm diameter max) perfect silvery spheres - I suppose these are the nice pure silicon samples I'm after. It seems wasteful to
use so much chemical to make a lot of silicon when I only need a gram or two at most, but if that's what must be done then so be it. At any rate, I
guess all I managed to do was stink up the property with H2S.
|
H2S is the reason I stopped preparing Si this way. Try and use large scrubbers with thin bleach to capture it, it oxidises the H2S to sulphur very
effectively.
Si thermites are quite hard, also because the density of molten Si is actually lower than the density of molten alumina!
|
|
|
Upsilon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 392
Registered: 6-10-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
H2S is the reason I stopped preparing Si this way. Try and use large scrubbers with thin bleach to capture it, it oxidises the H2S to sulphur very
effectively.
|
The H2S isn't really an issue until you try to dissolve the slag with either acid or water; dissolving the slag can easily be done in a controlled lab
environment where it can be easily neutralized (I just didn't for the sake of time). Some sulfur dioxide is produced when the thermite burns, but
that's not a big deal. H2S can be produced by the Al2S3 hydrolyzing with the moisture in air, but this doesn't happen at a fast enough rate to warrant
a scrubber setup over the thermite reactor itself.
Other methods of producing silicon metal may have advantages, but I'm trying to work strictly with SiO2 and don't really want to buy another silicon
compound. SiO2 is obviously quite difficult to work with chemically.
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7976
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | A much simpler way is to take advantage of the modest solubility of LiCO3 and the high insolubility of CaCO3:
Ca(NO3)2(aq) + 2 LiCO3(s,aq) === > CaCO3(s) + 2 LiNO3(aq)
Simply simmer a slurry of LiCO3(s,aq) with a Ca(NO)2 solution (stoichiometric amounts) and the slurry will precipitate the Ca as carbonate, leaving
the Li in solution as the highly soluble nitrate. Filter and recrystallise the LiNO3.
[Edited on 8-10-2015 by blogfast25] |
I do not want to nitpick, but I see a disturbing error in your post. From blogfast I expect better 
LiCO3 is a very special salt, which only exists in a parallel universe, yet to be discovered. In our universe we do have Li2CO3.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by woelen |
LiCO3 is a very special salt, which only exists in a parallel universe, yet to be discovered. In our universe we do have Li2CO3.
|
I never get those memos, woelen!
Oooopsie, Li<sub>2</sub>CO<sub>3</sub>, my very bad  .
Thank you.
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7976
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
Even the best sometimes has a slip of the brain 
|
|
|
Upsilon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 392
Registered: 6-10-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I attempted the thermite again today - much better results with the larger amounts (I used roughly 100g of mixture). I got similar pieces to what I
had before, though (definitely more of them however). I think I didn't allow them enough time in the HCl last time. I'll let them soak overnight and
whatnot and report back tomorrow.
I don't think I'll be doing this again though. The sulfur dioxide produced this time was much more significant, as was the H2S involved (it quickly
overpowered the bleach I used to neutralize it, I should have used a more concentrated oxidizer). I'm surprised I didn't incite any reaction from the
neighbors with the billowing SO2 cloud and rotten egg smell. I didn't even dissolve most of the slag; I picked out what I wanted and left the rest
alone. I bagged it up and I may use it as a crude H2S source in the future.
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6218
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: Unmoved
Member Is Offline
Mood: Organised
|
|
Thanks for reminding me how smelly this one gets. I am due for another attempt on a larger scale but have put it aside because, of all things, my lab
has lacked... sand. I now have some nice silica sand and so am ready for silicon extraction. I might want to choose a windy day.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1 | | Thanks for reminding me how smelly this one gets. I am due for another attempt on a larger scale but have put it aside because, of all things, my lab
has lacked... sand. I now have some nice silica sand and so am ready for silicon extraction. I might want to choose a windy day.
|
In the quest to eliminate sulphur (and thus H2S) from the SiO2 thermite I tried replacing the S+Al booster system with a KClO3 + Al booster system
several times (years ago). Although that worked well unfortunately the silicon got caught into extremely hard alumina from which it was impossible to
remove it. Very frustrating.
But I wonder if it's worth trying this with the CaSO4 + Al booster method. That would simply mean taking the TiO2/CaSO4/Al/CaF2 formulation and
substituting the TiO2 with SiO2, mol for mol. Worth a shot, methinks!
[Edited on 13-10-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Upsilon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 392
Registered: 6-10-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
So I recovered the pieces a little while ago. Upon applying even slight pressure they crumbled into a bunch of tiny useless shiny flakes (it is
literally glitter). I dumped this in frustration and have since tried again with a couple more pieces I pulled out of the slag I saved. It's strange;
these pieces that I pulled out looked exactly like what's in the picture on the website I used, and that was before HCl treatment. I put them in HCl
and I'll let them simmer a while.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon | | So I recovered the pieces a little while ago. Upon applying even slight pressure they crumbled into a bunch of tiny useless shiny flakes (it is
literally glitter). I dumped this in frustration and have since tried again with a couple more pieces I pulled out of the slag I saved. It's strange;
these pieces that I pulled out looked exactly like what's in the picture on the website I used, and that was before HCl treatment. I put them in HCl
and I'll let them simmer a while. |
Please bear in mind that silicon prepared this way is not particularly pure: apart from alloyed aluminium it probably also contains micro-occlusions
of slag, which would explain the poor mechanical properties.
To increase size of globules obtained, you might want to 'stoke up the heat' by increasing both S and Al content. A higher end-temperature allows more
cooling time and thus more longer time for the molten Si metal to coalesce into larger units.
|
|
|
Upsilon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 392
Registered: 6-10-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Please bear in mind that silicon prepared this way is not particularly pure: apart from alloyed aluminium it probably also contains micro-occlusions
of slag, which would explain the poor mechanical properties.
To increase size of globules obtained, you might want to 'stoke up the heat' by increasing both S and Al content. A higher end-temperature allows more
cooling time and thus more longer time for the molten Si metal to coalesce into larger units. |
That's probably it, then. I don't mind impurities so much, but if I can't even get a cohesive sample then I don't really want it. Like I said I don't
think I'll be doing this again just because of the nasty sulfur-based gas byproducts. Perhaps the calcium sulfate booster you mentioned would work,
but after using so much aluminum powder on this already I'm not really too keen on using some more unless I know it'll work.
That being said, I honestly have no idea what else I would do to prepare elemental silicon. Perhaps the most promising compound is silicon tetraiodide
(which I could melt down and electrolyze) but I don't know how I would get here from silicon dioxide. Maybe I could dissolve it in molten phosphoric
acid, then react this silicon phosphate (which I cannot find information on surprisingly) with hydroiodic acid?
Either way this is certainly not the quick and easy lunch-break experiment I was hoping for! Goes to show that things are so much easier on paper in chemistry.
EDIT: You know, I might as well try carbothermic reduction since I'm planning on building an arc furnace anyway. This silicon can then be purified
using a silicon tetrachloride method. I suppose I could have done this already but I didn't really want to try and scrape together a bunch of this
fine silicon powder.
[Edited on 14-10-2015 by Upsilon]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon |
That being said, I honestly have no idea what else I would do to prepare elemental silicon. Perhaps the most promising compound is silicon tetraiodide
(which I could melt down and electrolyze) but I don't know how I would get here from silicon dioxide. Maybe I could dissolve it in molten phosphoric
acid, then react this silicon phosphate (which I cannot find information on surprisingly) with hydroiodic acid?
|
Nah, SiI<sub>4</sub> is a purely covalent compound and can't be electrolysed. It's also hard to prepare at hobby level. Silicon phosphate
doesn't even exist: Si is not a real metal, remember?
Industrially, reduction of SiCl<sub>4</sub> with Mg metal is used but forget about trying that in your garage or potting shed lab! 
|
|
|
Upsilon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 392
Registered: 6-10-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Industrially, reduction of SiCl<sub>4</sub> with Mg metal is used but forget about trying that in your garage or potting shed lab! |
Does it occur with explosive force or something? What exactly makes it impractical for the home lab?
Also like I said I may try the carbothermic reduction method for producing silicon when I get around to building my arc furnace.
...hell, with an arc furnace, I could probably just run the SiO2 + All thermite on its own, right? And avoid toxic gases altogether? Since the problem
with this reaction normally is just not enough heat to sustain the reaction? In an arc furnace this would be no issue, plus I could keep the heat
going as long as I want to allow the silicon metal to coalesce as much as I want it to.
[Edited on 14-10-2015 by Upsilon]
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6218
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: Unmoved
Member Is Offline
Mood: Organised
|
|
Hmm. Sorry it didn't work out for you, Upsilon.
Last time I did this reaction was over a year ago. From memory it was somewhere between 50 and 80 grams of mix in total. IO used the same ratios as
you. I got a few pebbles of silicon -- the largest of which would have been 8mm diameter. It seemed to have pretty good mechanical properties.
I can't remember how fine my aluminium was. That might make a difference. I am definitely looking forward to doing it again. I was thinking of
perhaps a half kilo batch.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon |
Does it occur with explosive force or something? What exactly makes it impractical for the home lab?
Also like I said I may try the carbothermic reduction method for producing silicon when I get around to building my arc furnace.
...hell, with an arc furnace, I could probably just run the SiO2 + All thermite on its own, right? And avoid toxic gases altogether? Since the problem
with this reaction normally is just not enough heat to sustain the reaction? In an arc furnace this would be no issue, plus I could keep the heat
going as long as I want to allow the silicon metal to coalesce as much as I want it to.
|
It's highly exothermic and with a volatile reactant (SiCl<sub>4</sub>
that means pressurised reactors.
Arc furnace for carbothermic or aluminothemic reduction of sand should work. The carbothermic version is of course used industrially.
[Edited on 14-10-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Why not try a small batch with CaSO<sub>4</sub> + Al, instead of sulphur?
|
|
|
Upsilon
Hazard to Others
Posts: 392
Registered: 6-10-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Arc furnace for carbothermic or aluminothemic reduction of sand should work. The carbothermic version is of course used industrially.
[Edited on 14-10-2015 by blogfast25] |
Honestly I think I'll go with the carbothermic. I was worried about carbon monoxide but then I remembered that it would simply burn immediately after
being produced to form carbon dioxide. Besides, the alumina would probably be too hard to melt in the arc furnace (especially since I'll probably be
using alumina brick), plus the carbothermic reduction should leave nothing but Si metal behind so I don't have to deal with slag (in reality though, I
expect there to be a noticeable amount of carbon left over).
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
..
14 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
