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underground
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Plasticizer problem
From this topic it says that you can make a really good plasticizer from polybutene ( bird repellant) motor oil and methylricinoleate. I tried this
method without success. I tried to plasticize 10gr of powdered sugar with no luck. I tried with 10% from Kitchen Improvised, 10% ( 1.83%PBN
6.19%MethRicin 2.06%SAE 30 MotorOil) 15% ( 2.75%PBN 9.28%MethRicin 3.09%SAE 30 MotorOil) and 15% (6.3%PBN 7.2%MethRicin 1.5%SAE 30 MotorOil) All of
them was very brittle. The less brittle was the last one but steel far from what it must be.
I just want to make an ETN based C4 but i am using powdered sugar because i dont want to waste my ETN
[Edited on 20-11-2015 by underground]
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OneEyedPyro
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Powdered sugar isn't exactly going to work the same way as ETN would in a mixture, I have a feeling ETN would cling together better than the sugar.
I know semtex is about 20% inerts so you could try adding a bit more plasticizer/binder, 2% PIB, 3% MRO and 15% motor oil might work better.
I'm not sure how you're mixing the ingredients but dissolving a low weight conventional motor oil and PIB in a non polar solvent and kneading it into
the ETN until homogenous then evaporating the solvent is a pretty good method.
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NeonPulse
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I agree, the inert testing is not really needed if you use a small amount say 5 g to start.measure carefully so not to have too much inert
ingredients. It is quite easy. Just dissolve the plastics/oils in white spirit mix till homogeneous and evaporate solvent. All or most of the solvent
must be evaporated before rolling the plastic out. Easy process really.
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underground
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I dissolve them in unleaded gasoline, mix the sugar and i let the gasoline to evaporate.
OneEyedPyro why so much Motor oil ? Every combination that i have seen usually uses more MRO
C4 has only 10% inerts. I want to keep the inerts low for better VoD
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OneEyedPyro
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I'm not really sure what role MRO would play in such a mixture to be honest, I doubt it would act much different than motor oil though. I've heard it
prevents some solids in plastic explosives from recrystallizing and hardening but I wouldn't think that would be a big problem with ETN.
You can always add some NG to help make a nice handling product while keeping the VoD up, NG is very effective as a plasticizer and it helps as a
binder since it dissolves some of the ETN making it tacky.
2% PIB, 8% NG and 5% oil would probably make a decent handling plastic with a good VoD, the ratios are purely speculation but it should be pretty
close to a workable mixture.
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underground
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The problem with NG is that it is not storage stable.
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greenlight
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Nitroglycerin is sensitive because of its vapour pressure causing microscopic bubbles which form in it and act as initiating spots when shocked.
If it is absorbed into an absorbent material which I am sure PETN would suffice, it stops these bubbles from forming and would make a more stable
product.
I don't know about longer term storage as I have seen a youtube video of a linear shaped charge using this explosive mixture and upon arrival at the
detonation site, the charge is sweating/leaking some of the nitroglycerin out the side.
I am sure there is some chemical that can be used to stop the sweating of the NG though.
The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
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OneEyedPyro
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When properly neutralized and purified NG is quite storage stable in the sense that it won't decompose after years if not decades.
The way it tends to separate from mixtures is a problem but since ETN is soluble in NG I don't think it would be such an issue.
NG has a bit worse of a reputation than it deserves in my opinion.
I remember the first time I did a hammer test on some NG and it took 5 solid hammer strikes to set it off, I was quite surprised sinse I was
expecting peroxide like sensitivity.
In any case there are other very safe liquid energetics like nitromethane if you're not comfortable with NG.
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nitro-genes
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This may also be interesting, 1,2 propanediol is available as a less toxic anti-freeze:
US 3208890 A
Nitration to 1,2 PGDN is pretty straightforward, sensitivity comparable to TNT IIRC. Toxicity of the 1,2 PGDN is not really clear, presumably similar
to NG and absorbed through skin.
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greenlight
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You are right NG does get almost a worse name than organic peroxides.
I have never done a hammer test on it but all the results that I have read from them are just like yours 4-5 hits compared to 1 or two for acetone
peroxide.
I think it is less sensitive if a drop is placed on a hard surface and hit compared to if you soak it into a tissue and then smack it. I think ot
takes less hits to initiate it then.
The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Quote: Originally posted by underground  | From this topic it says that you can make a really good plasticizer from polybutene ( bird repellant) motor oil and methylricinoleate. I tried this
method without success. I tried to plasticize 10gr of powdered sugar with no luck. I tried with 10% from Kitchen Improvised, 10% ( 1.83%PBN
6.19%MethRicin 2.06%SAE 30 MotorOil) 15% ( 2.75%PBN 9.28%MethRicin 3.09%SAE 30 MotorOil) and 15% (6.3%PBN 7.2%MethRicin 1.5%SAE 30 MotorOil) All of
them was very brittle. The less brittle was the last one but steel far from what it must be.
I just want to make an ETN based C4 but i am using powdered sugar because i dont want to waste my ETN
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The process doesn't work wel because sugar is a highly polar compound (a lot of hydroxy alcohol groups and an aldehyd function; thus very soluble in
water and hydrophile) while your Motor Oil,PBN and Me ricinoleate are highly apolar, alcanic and hydrophobic.
You are thus trying to mix like water and oil...it is harder!
ETN is kind of apolar, hydrophobic and as such in chemistry like likes like...so in that case the hydrophobic plasticizer mix do actually kind of
dissolve in each other.
See chewing-gum and benzine example.
Beter watch at the octanol/water coefficient of compounds to get the feeling of good compatibility.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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underground
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I have tried with 15% inerts and 20g of ETN but still not big deal. I used 6.5%PBN 6.5%MRT and 0.2%MO. Any suggested combinations for PBN-MRT-MO ?
[Edited on 22-11-2015 by underground]
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Praxichys
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I think gasoline is a poor choice of solvent and may be causing some of your problems. Modern gas can be up to 10% ethanol, will contain various
organometallic antiknock additives (like MMT), oxygenates (typically ketones or esters), detergents, metal deactivators, stabilizers, antioxidants,
and a whole host of unsaturated hydrocarbons.
http://bcn.boulder.co.us/basin/waterworks/gasolinecomp.pdf
There are plenty of things in there that will polymerize with or crosslink the PBN and the methyl ricinoleate. Once the rest of the volatiles
evaporate, you are left with something like a chunk of plastic with a lot of filler.
Try looking for highly hydrotreated paraffinic solvents like coleman camping fuel or barbeque charcoal lighter fluid. They will contain almost zero
unsaturated or aromatic compounds and will not cause polymerization problems. You could also use a pure reagent-type solvent like n-heptane, hexanes,
cyclohexane, etc.
[Edited on 23-11-2015 by Praxichys]
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underground
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Can i use just pure aceton for that purpose ?
[Edited on 23-11-2015 by underground]
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Praxichys
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That depends on what you're trying to achieve.
If you have already recrystallized your ETN into a dense crystalline state, ideally that should not be modified. To do it right, you need a solvent
that dissolves only the plasticizers and binders and not the ETN. The ETN crystals are wet with a solution of the binders and plasticizers and the
solvent dries, leaving unmodified, dense grains of ETN coated in a thin layer. RDX is handled this way in the manufacture of C-4.
Acetone will dissolve the ETN. When the mixture is dried, the crystal structure of the ETN will be modified. If these crystals too small or too
fluffy, total density (and hence, performance) might suffer.
So, acetone will probably work. However, it is not the ideal situation for performance.
EDIT: Some suitable solvents -
Mineral spirits
Zippo fluid
Oil-based paint thinner
Coleman camp fuel or "white gas"
Barbecue lighter fluid
Petroleum ether
Xylenes
any isomers of hexane or heptane
VM&P Naphtha
Look on MSDSs for keywords like "Light hydrotreated paraffinic hydrocarbons" (With the exception of xylenes, all of these products are basically the
same thing. They differ slightly in boiling point, so some will take longer to evaporate than others.)
[Edited on 23-11-2015 by Praxichys]
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underground
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So i guess white spirit (paint thinner) will do the job
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underground
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Can just ETN and vaseline make a good plastic explosive ?
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NeonPulse
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White gas/ Coleman fuel also used in dry cleaning. Zippo fluid works well the list that pray provided pretty much covers it. As fo ETN /petroleum
jelly it may work but I suspect it would have rather poor handling and be hard to load properly plus susceptible to melt in Warner temperatures or
even from over kneading. Another very real problem I experienced some time ago when I experimented with ETN and silicone grease was a serious nitro
headache. This headache was a beast,very bad lasting all night and part of the next morning. So just be aware that ETN can cause this fi mishandled
like I did when I was not very experienced in these matters.
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underground
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I always use gloves and i am trying not to come in contact with them. How can i check if polymerization is working ? Maybe it is working with
gasoline. What if i try first to see how the material looks like after the evaporation of the solvent, without the addition of ETN ? Try first with
gasoline and then with pure acetone to see if there is any difference between them in the end
[Edited on 6-12-2015 by underground]
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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PIB 19
When I see and read a big problem with plastification, I can recommended Poly Isomer Butylene from commerce vulcanize tape. Usually called PIB 19. Her
molecular weight (long of molecule) is good. Respective her middle molecular long /weight. Long of molecule is a crucial conditions for purpose any
PIB. Because PIB can be as oil to hard solid rubber. And allways is it only PIB. //Same difference pay for silicone oil and any synthetic glue -
binder. For example rat or bird trap. // But with very different molecular weight. On Liptakov channel you can see good and easy plasticizer from tape
(e-bay) this compose: PIB 4 -5 % (dissolved in heptane on 10% liq.) And synthetic oil 5W40 also same, 4-5% of all amount. Ration is possible change,
usually 4:6 to 6:4. Best is 1:1, respective 4,5+4,5% of all ammount. Together thus 8 - 10% plastificator. Heptane (gasoline) evaporate, of course. I
have not with plastification nothing problems. Watching video Chedditex. Dr. Liptakov
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underground
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What do you usually use ? Pib, MRO and motor oil?
So maybe i must use PIB and not polybutene
[Edited on 14-12-2015 by underground]
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Determination
But I say, I write. Only PIB from tape and motor oil (syntehtic) 5W40. Its all. Tape is need dissolved in gasoline. Two day process. On 1g tape 10g
heptane.
Determination of the concentration: 5,00 g of the solution poured onto a stainless steel surface. Evaporate heptane. Make a ball of pure PIB. Consider
at 0.01 grams. If it is 0.45 g for 10g is it 0.9 g. In 10 g of the solution was 0.9 g PIB. The concentration of the solution is 9%. If you want to add
4.5 g PIB somewhere? Calculation: 100: 9 = 11.1. 4,5x11,1 = 49.95 = Thus, in 50 g solution is 4.5 g (dry) PIB. Into 50g poured 4,5g 5W40. Stirr. In
this time we have 9grams of plastificator. For 91 grams of ETN, PETN, or AN,(Plastan) for KClO3, (Chedditex) or flour (building animals) or anything
fine material. Dr. Liptakov
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underground
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Is it the same with Self-amalgamating tape made out of PIB ? By cutting the tape and add it into heptane, then after 2 days filter it and let the
heptane to evaporate will ppt out pure PIB ? Will this work ?
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markx
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| Quote: Originally posted by underground |
Is it the same with Self-amalgamating tape made out of PIB ? By cutting the tape and add it into heptane, then after 2 days filter it and let the
heptane to evaporate will ppt out pure PIB ? Will this work ? |
Yes, the selfamalgamating/vulcanizing tape does contain PIB, but the amount is rather small and the tape is not cheap. Extracting the pib with heptane
or other nonpolar hydrocarbons (regular gasoline works too) will do the trick and you do not need to let the solvent evaporate. Just determine the
concentration of the solution (by weighing a sample before and after solvent evaporation) and dose accordingly into your formulation. In fact it is
much easier to dose pib in solution as it is a terrible sticky mess when in pure form and trying to remove a chunk from it is quite a bit of work. The
PIB from tape has quite a high mw polymer and will definately require the addition of a plasticiser.
Hence you may also look into rodent glues and bird repellants....they are mostly pure pib and sold in bulk quantities for "asocial" prices. The pib
from these products usually has a lower mw and is more like a very sticky viscous liquid rather than a sticky solid. Therefore this product may not
require any additional plasticisers and one can simplify the compositions even further.
Exact science is a figment of imagination.......
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Fulmen
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Another approach is to precipitate the PIB with a more polar solvent like acetone. While it requires you to redissolve it when making plastic it's
much easier to store in it's pure form.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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