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Bert
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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 11:07
Politics, religion, flame wars and the "Whimsy" sub forum-


Once again, I wish to apologize to all for habitually avoiding whimsy, missing or failing to correct departures from site policy and allowing continual flame wars thereby.

I have cleared a course of action with the site owner: To enforce the very specific "no politics, no flaming" requirement in whimsy, as given in the FAQ regarding topics.

Quote:

Forum Matters: discussion and announcements about the forum itself.

Legal and Societal Issues: discussions about popular perceptions of amateur science and legal issues that impair its pursuit.

Whimsy: absolutely any sort of discussion, apart from flaming or politics (which by hard experience is an invitation to flaming)

Detritus: locked and/or worthless threads are preserved here in a sort of electronic wax museum


I will move every thread I am aware of that violates this to detritus, and lock.

Any further threads that bring politics and flaming to this section (or any other) will be dealt with in this fashion. Members are requested to report any such on sight, and to please refrain from partisan considerations in so doing.

It's all there in the FAQ:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/madscifaq.html#2.1_Board_topic...

I know the rules were not enforced for quite a while. Sorry. If arguing politics and flaming is something you really want to do, there are endless other sites to carry on in.





Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 14:53


Kudos Bert



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Collector of reagents.
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 15:46


I can't say I'm disappointed.

I completely forgot that FAQ even existed. I can find it through Google, but is it linked from the forum anywhere?
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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 16:27


Good to hear it Bert!
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j_sum1
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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 17:01


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
My affiliation with this forum has ended. Truth cannot be spoken here.


Mmm. Ok.
Actually, I would rather you stick around and write up some chemistry. From what I can tell, you are rather good at it. I do have to search back a long way to find it though.


You and Blogfast25 can have another spit-fest if you like. But, if I understand Bert's intention here, it is to minimise that kind of thing. It is not reasonable for you to complain about ad-hom attacks and at the same time sing off remarks about blogfast's "utopianist delusion". As for the "constitution" remarks: surely it is up to the board admins and mods to interpret (and alter as they see fit) the terms of engagement on this site and to preserve the culture of this science forum. I don't think that is actually a constitution. But it is certainly not a matter of blogfast's interpretation of the rules. If he violates protocol then let the mods deal with that as they see best.


Good call Bert. We will lose a little but I think we will gain a lot more.




If you are interested, take a look at the latest offering from sum_lab:
A primer on metals and non-metals with at least one novel experiment.
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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 17:04


The wait is finally over!

Cannot wait to see this policy in action.




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Next in Line: Ge
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Texium (zts16)
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4-1-2016 at 17:18
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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 17:20


Yeah, blogfast. I know you understand that. But RB wanted to debate the point and has inferred that this move is merely you getting a license to push your own agenda.



If you are interested, take a look at the latest offering from sum_lab:
A primer on metals and non-metals with at least one novel experiment.
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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 17:36


Well, you really have two choices Rosco. Stay or go.
There are plenty of places where you can discuss your political views.
There are no other places that I am aware of where chemistry and scientific matters can be discussed in the way that they are on this board.




If you are interested, take a look at the latest offering from sum_lab:
A primer on metals and non-metals with at least one novel experiment.
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Texium (zts16)
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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 17:43


Your quote there is irrelevant being as it is contradicted by the FAQ page that Bert posted in the OP. He also stated that Polverone is in agreement with him on this issue. This site has a clear no-politics policy, and it will be enforced from now on. It's nothing personal against you. And to be perfectly clear, I'm not some minion of blogfast's. To be honest, I actually find him to be more frustrating to deal with than you are!

But please do stay if it is possible for you to avoid politics and post mainly about chemistry. There's plenty of other forums out there where you can get into political arguments. This is no longer one of them.




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Polverone
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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 18:59


It's hard to believe that I wrote that injunction against politics nearly 9 years ago and we're still having the same problems.

If someone were a rules-lawyering robot they might claim that calmly insulting different religions, political parties, dearly held ideologies etc. is fine according to the letter of the law, and it's people who can't argue back without anger who are really at fault. But everybody here is mere flesh and blood -- I checked! -- so this argument is hereby rejected by The Management.




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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 19:43


Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
I can't say I'm disappointed.

I completely forgot that FAQ even existed. I can find it through Google, but is it linked from the forum anywhere?


There are two forum FAQs, the one at the top of this page for the form software itself, and another on the main page of sciencemadness, you can get to it directly from here by clicking the "Back to [Home]" icon in the upper right-hand corner under your control panel link.

Regarding enforcement of the policy, it's a shame it was not continually enforced since the hammer came down those nine years ago. I remember at that time the spew of irrelevant political poison that had been filling whimsy began to overflow into the civility of the form proper. At that time it was no longer a matter of ignoring whimsy and concentrating on the rest of the forum and I can only assume it is once again reaching that tipping point.





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Polverone
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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 22:21


I should add: if you haven't seen Rosco Bodine contribute positively to this forum, you must not read Energetic Materials. It is still Rosco's top forum by post volume and he has shared countless references, experiences, and bits of informed speculation there. Rosco started emailing me in the very early days of Sciencemadness, anonymously, to share some excellent preparations he had refined as "Mr. Anonymous." I will always appreciate those gems he shared, especially in the context of the times where mass digitization of libraries and journals was still new.

I don't want to throw anyone involved in these contentious threads out of the forum. They all share a love for chemistry and allied topics, if not anything else. Of course I can't stop anyone if they choose to leave.




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[*] posted on 4-1-2016 at 22:49


This thread on hydrazine sulfate was the one I came across most recently. Rosco is stamped all over it. Extremely useful and interesting.
But, you are right. EM is not my playground.




If you are interested, take a look at the latest offering from sum_lab:
A primer on metals and non-metals with at least one novel experiment.
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Polverone
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5-1-2016 at 09:37
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[*] posted on 5-1-2016 at 15:43


www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=64911



Techniques to Disrupt, Deviate and Seize Control of an Internet Forum In case you wonder W T F ! is going on here ?
www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-10-28/cointelpro-techniques-dilution-misdirection-and-control-internet-forum www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/the-15-rules-of-internet-disinformation.html
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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[*] posted on 5-1-2016 at 18:02


Can you and blogfast cut it the hell out now?
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[*] posted on 5-1-2016 at 18:49


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
I will move every thread I am aware of that violates this to detritus, and lock.


And now I need to avoid detritus as well! Where will it end?

I only see this really impacting less than a dozen people out of the ~7600 members that have posted.




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[*] posted on 5-1-2016 at 19:28


Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  

And now I need to avoid detritus as well! Where will it end?



You used to be an avid reader of Detritus? ;)




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[*] posted on 5-1-2016 at 19:31


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  

And now I need to avoid detritus as well! Where will it end?



You used to be an avid reader of Detritus? ;)


InvertedPenis's Vulture thread is one of the Sciencemadness classics. How often do you see a person get deleted from the system only to have a glitch in their error make them unable to be deleted?

[Edited on 1/6/2016 by BromicAcid]




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[*] posted on 5-1-2016 at 19:55


Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  


InvertedPenis's Vulture thread is one of the Sciencemadness classics. How often do you see a person get deleted from the system only to have a glitch in their error make them unable to be deleted?

[Edited on 1/6/2016 by BromicAcid]


What can I say? Classy handle, classy thread? 'Let it all hang out'? Nope.

Bweurk. I support free speech but it sure does produce some stinky turds.

Looks like 'Inverted Penis' just died of natural causes, I mean is this a survivable condition? :o



[Edited on 6-1-2016 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 6-1-2016 at 07:45


You've got to have regulation on any site open to the internet, or you'll have chaos. Worse than that is the fact that flame wars are totally unproductive. The great virtue of this site is how much real, useful knowledge and information it contains. There is no scientific library in the world that is comparable.

In my opinion rude behavior, ad hominem and/oir vulgar attacks should not be allowed, period. But Polverone seems to be saying that just prohibiting rude behavior, as the site policy has long done, doesn't work, and is too hard for the monitors to enforce. So prohibiting political discussions in general seems to be the next step. Personally I don't mind that.

I wonder if climate change can be discussed scientifically, or if it is too "political". Too bad, there is interesting science in climate change. I just read an interesting book on paleoclimate, and my niece just finished her PhD on the same topic.




Any other SF Bay chemists?
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[*] posted on 6-1-2016 at 07:49


There is a thread about climate change on this site that is supposed to be scientific and civil, however if it comes up again it will need heavy pruning as it descended into a flame war after bfesser left. It might be good to start a new one at some point.



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[*] posted on 6-1-2016 at 10:24


Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
It might be good to start a new one at some point.


There is every reason to believe a new thread on ACC will soon descend into flames too. None of us here as far as I know are climate change scientists. inevitably political arguments end up being used.

And such a thread would almost immediately be plagued by the 'it's a HOAX!' crowd, who hold that to be 'objective truth' too.

'Let sleeping dogs sleep lie', I say.




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[*] posted on 6-1-2016 at 11:55


I've had a post for that thread I've been sitting on for a while because the forum atmosphere has just been so noxious lately and I didn't want to inflame it further. The topic might be explorable under careful moderation for hate speech and disruptive shitposting, but I'm at the very least going wait a while for the current upheaval to renormalize, before (if) I kick that sleeping dog.

I'm in favor of not injecting (tangentially or not at all relevant) partisan politics into the forum, but I am somewhat confused about how this moderation is going to deal with the politics which home science are embedded in. We already have a dedicated subforum (Legal and Societal Issues) for these sorts of topics, and I think that those discussions are worth having - IF they can be had without turning them into skidmarks (like this one did: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=63653 )

Here's an example of what I'm talking about, as a contrast with recent nastiness. Again, I think the difference is between home scientists shoehorning discussion of far-removed issues into the forum, and the forum hosting discussion of (and organizing around) issues which impact home scientists, as home scientists.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=18550

Thoughts?




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[*] posted on 6-1-2016 at 12:17


@mayko:

I doubt very much if topics like home chemistry regulation could ever generate near as much heat as more mainstream political conundrums (guns, religion, ME, ACC, gays, Israel, immigration, Trump, etc etc etc) ever could. Mild moderation should be able to contain any nastiness on these sorts of threads.




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Etaoin Shrdlu
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[*] posted on 6-1-2016 at 14:37


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
I doubt very much if topics like home chemistry regulation could ever generate near as much heat as more mainstream political conundrums (guns, religion, ME, ACC, gays, Israel, immigration, Trump, etc etc etc) ever could.

That's because we tend to agree on less regulation by virtue of being hobby chemists, and I've still seen people try to bite each other's heads off over drug discussions. If we merged sciencemadness with forums.officer.com there would be flame wars left and right.

Why we all can't refrain from calling names over other politics I don't know, but there you have it.
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