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Author: Subject: Experimental explosives
a nitrogen rich explosive
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[*] posted on 1-5-2016 at 01:14


Sonoluminescence? Please explain - I have never come across that before.



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[*] posted on 1-5-2016 at 06:35


Wikipedia does give a higher value for N2O4 and nitrobenzene. The article does contain errors though, so it's maybe not the most reliable source. My program replicates their VoD for the similar mixture TNM/nitrobenzene and N2O4/nitrobenzene is a lot less dense so I think my valule is closer to the reality.
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XeonTheMGPony
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[*] posted on 1-5-2016 at 08:01


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
Sonoluminescence? Please explain - I have never come across that before.


If you use a pair of matched ultrasonic transducer at 180 degrees of each other and fire them with a liquid in the center, it creates a plasma bubble that emits lights as it rapidly expands and implodes due to irredecent temps built up in the core of the bubble.

I do not recall the frequency needed, they used it as a FX trick in the movie (Chain Reaction)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminescence

So I'd have to say odds are very good it would trigger a liquid HE

[Edited on 1-5-2016 by XeonTheMGPony]
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[*] posted on 1-5-2016 at 08:20


Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
Sonoluminescence? Please explain - I have never come across that before.


If you use a pair of matched ultrasonic transducer at 180 degrees of each other and fire them with a liquid in the center, it creates a plasma bubble that emits lights as it rapidly expands and implodes due to irredecent temps built up in the core of the bubble.

I do not recall the frequency needed, they used it as a FX trick in the movie (Chain Reaction)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminescence

So I'd have to say odds are very good it would trigger a liquid HE

[Edited on 1-5-2016 by XeonTheMGPony]


I (and StackExchange) am under the impression that cavitation (the process which causes sonoluminescence) is the mechanism responsible for the shock sensitivity of nitroglycerine.

There is also a species of shrimp which uses cavitation as a weapon to stun its prey:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-puNYSVCCc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC6I8iPiHT8




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a nitrogen rich explosive
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[*] posted on 1-5-2016 at 09:14


And also MEKP? So the bubble expands until the heat is too great, at which point it collapses in on itself to create a shockwave. That's very interesting.



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[*] posted on 1-5-2016 at 09:22


it is the implosion that creates the heat.

it is very similar to cavitation.
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[*] posted on 1-5-2016 at 09:42


Assuming the very big T° and pressure in a cavitation bubble under quasi adiabatic conditions, I would say that any liquid (with a high to medium volatility) explosive should detonate.

Sonication also makes the media heat up.




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[*] posted on 1-5-2016 at 09:48


Sonication?



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[*] posted on 1-5-2016 at 11:48


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  

Sonication?

S-O-Ni(3+) --> SONi-cation
No kidding.


Sonication from the verb to sonicate...to submit something to the action of sound...here ultrasounds...

Do me and us a favor, do first a Google search on sonochemistry, ultrasounds and Titanium horn...eventually search into the forum before asking such questions.


[Edited on 1-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 13-5-2016 at 02:55


It would be possible to produce organic perchlorates from Pentaerythritol and Erythritol through hydrochloride + NaClO4 and should be of practical use ?

[Edited on 13-5-2016 by specialactivitieSK]
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[*] posted on 13-5-2016 at 03:10


If you are thinking of perchlorate esters, they are very powerful and incredibly sensitive, at least for high substituent to substrate ratios. Not even remotely practical, and you would probably lose important bodily appendages in the process of making these compounds.
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[*] posted on 13-5-2016 at 06:17


Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  
If you are thinking of perchlorate esters, they are very powerful and incredibly sensitive, at least for high substituent to substrate ratios. Not even remotely practical, and you would probably lose important bodily appendages in the process of making these compounds.


would you please give examples of perchlorate esters?
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[*] posted on 13-5-2016 at 07:33


Quote: Originally posted by specialactivitieSK  
It would be possible to produce organic perchlorates from Pentaerythritol and Erythritol through hydrochloride + NaClO4 and should be of practical use ?

[Edited on 13-5-2016 by specialactivitieSK]

I know an european guy who attempted propantriol triperchlorate ester and pentaerythritol tetraperchlorate ester at one of his French friend's house...despite my warning he did it and it resulted in a devastative indoor explosion (apparently involving a visite of the police, confiscation of material and financial penalty)...I don't know if he (or someone else) was hurt (or worst)...and I didn't got the whole story because he was apparently so ashamed and not proud of it to tell the full story.
He did his experiment following a successful but riskful procedure involving the making of Cl2O7 and 100% HClO4 to esterifiate glycol (1,2-ethandiol) and glycerol (1,2,3-propantriol).

Examples of perchloric esters are methyl, ethyl and trichloromethyl perchlorates. All 3 have bad reputation.
One of the famous members of this forum did some with extreme caution and cold distillation/condensation (do a search).

Sensitivity (towards heat, shock or friction) of perchloric esters is much higher than that of parent nitric esters.

Main reason must be the following equation that holds true for hypochlorous esters and responsible for their explosive unstability...
CH3-O-Cl(l) --> CH2=O(g) + HCl(g) + heat
(CH3)2CH-O-Cl(l) --> (CH3)2C=O(l) + HCl(g) + heat

by analogy
CH3-O-ClO3 (l) --> CH2=O (g) + HO-ClO2 (l) + heat
2 HO-ClO2 (l) --> H2O (l) + 1/2O2(g) + 2 ClO2(g)
Note that ClO2 is an explosive when brought into contact with organic materials and formaldehyde is extermely oxydable
--> spontaneous heating and deflagro-detonation --> CO2 + Cl2 + H2O
Isopropyl perchlorate should behave the same!

--> Any primary or secondary alcohols will behave like that upon the slightest stimulus.
Erythritol or pentaerythritol tetraperchlorates would be very bad news because holding only primary and secondary alcoholic functions just like methanol, ethanol, glycol, propantriol whose perchloric esters are hyper sensitive...

Now as a light through the dark (?) tertiary alcohols do form stable hypochlorous esters...
Typical example is terbutyl hypochlorite used in some organic chemical reactions and available as a reactant via common chemical product resellers.
--> (CH3)3C-O-Cl exist and is stable

Then by analogy:

--> Maybe (CH3)C-O-ClO3 (tertbutyl perchlorate) might be of value and display some practical use (stability).
If this holds the preparation test phase it should remain relatively stable because
(CH3)3C-O-ClO3 <---> (CH3)3C(+) + ClO4(-)
(CH3)3C-O-ClO3 <---> (CH3)2C=CH2 + HClO4
This last step is stil critical because 100% HClO4 in contact with organic matter is prompt for heating, fire, deflagration and detonation...

If t-butyl ester is proven to be stable enough, then:
Even better would be to test bicyclo(2,2,2)octane-1,4-diol diperchlorate... because it should be denser and with a better OB
O3Cl-O-C(-CH2-CH2-)3C-O-ClO3

Then taking the adamantane structure, it can hold 4 tertiary alcohol positions --> adamantane tetrol tetraperchlorate with the 4 alcohol positions as far of each other as possible to avoid stress of the external perchlorate groups.

Cubane might also be interesting assuming that all summits could hold a ternary alcohol
--> cubane octa-ol octaperchlorate
C8(-O-ClO3)8
But this might be a little too pushed because octanitrocubane has already a hard time to get all its -NO2 unstressed and -O-ClO3 will be much larger group...
--> So more realistic but stil very powerfully potent HE, with 4 tops of the cubane holding 4 alcohol functions as far as possible of each other
--> cubane tetrol tetraperchlorate C8H4(O-ClO3)4 (C8H4Cl4O16)
--> Perfect OB --> 8 CO2(g) + 4 HCl(g)

The idea to use 1,1,2,2-tetramethyl-ethan-1,2-diol (tetramethyl-glycol obtainable via reduction of propanone (aceton)--> pinacole) to make a diperchloric ester will be risky since it tends to rearrange into pinacolone in acidic media...so this viccinal tertiary alcohol might be a source of troubles in the case of perchloric esters...

[Edited on 13-5-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 13-5-2016 at 10:57


Ethyl perchlorate was responsible for the famous 'spoon shot' wasn't it?
My problem with organic perchlorates is that something like methyl perchlorate would easily score 4-4-4 for H&S (toxicity ~phosgene, highly explosive, highly reactive.) Also, when distilling HClO4 to anyhdrous, does it all turn to Cl2O7 or does only some of that form?
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