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Gurt
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[*] posted on 21-4-2016 at 06:13
Reagents for sale


Hello everyone,
I am posting today to say that after a good while lurking and reading on the forums, I have come to a realization. I am currently setting the last bit of my LLC up, and have decided to do some chemical importation and sales. I arrived at this idea mostly because of the difficulty for amateur experimenters in finding certain reagents for a fair price. As well as the issue of often having to order much larger amounts than needed if one can find them. So I started looking and decided to set up an LLC and do some calling around to find out what would be required of me to set up a small chemical business. Now with everything coming together all that is really left is to decide what I should stock first.

So far I plan on ordering in:

Sodium Borohydride
Benzene
Elemental Sodium
Ethyl Acetoacetate
Acetonitrile
Acetamide

My question now is what you, the users of this forum, would like to see. What do you think would be good additions to stock? If there is enough interest in certain materials I will certainly see about either importing them, or purchasing from a manufacturer in country. Also, at this time I plan on only working within the U.S. just to see how it goes. But I would be willing to work out shipping internationally as long as it is nothing highly hazardous. Thank you, and please let me know what you would like to see!
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Loptr
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[*] posted on 21-4-2016 at 06:55


Hydrides would be of interest in general, since they are more difficult to get for the amateur. Benzene seems to be similar to unobtainium unless preparing it yourself or ordering from a larger supply warehouse as the smaller ones don't seem to carry it. Sodium is quite available if you wish to order off eBay or a few select websites, but any additional supply of it is always welcomed. Ethyl acetoacetate is easily prepared at home. Acetonitrile is expensive for the most part, unless you have an account with a chemical supply warehouse. Acetamide is easily prepared at home.

Strong bases (LDA, potassium tert-butoxide, sodium amide, etc., although, I have been looking into the use of NaOH under PTC conditions)
Hydrides (hydrides, borohydrides, DIBAL, Red-Al; some of the more friendly ones would be appreicated. if it has a tendency towards becoming a fireball, an alternative might be a better choice.)
Alkylating agents
Acid chlorides
Acid anhydrides
Some of the more exotic, deprecated, and expensive reagents (TEMPO, KCN, silanes)
Amines
...
...
...
Solvents in general are a good thing to have access to, especially if they are at a reduced price. (glymes, diethyl ether, THF, 2-MeTHF, etc.)

Basically, if it isn't commonly available to the amateur, but is commonly used in a lab, it will be of interest. I am positive others here could provide a much better variety than what I have listed here from the top of my head while in a meeting.

Also, the more general the reagent in its use in chemistry, the better it would be for stocking up. There are a few different types of reagents that are more difficult to get ahold of--I would start with those.

[Edited on 21-4-2016 by Loptr]

[Edited on 21-4-2016 by Loptr]
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Gurt
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[*] posted on 21-4-2016 at 21:58


Thank you very much for your input. I will make a few inquiries for supplies of solvents and some acid chlorides. My only concern with importing large quantities of solvent is gaining a skeptical eye from government agencies. Same reason why I am not interested in importing certain listed or watched chemicals, IE Benzaldehyde, Acetic Anhydride, and such. However, I think solvents may be fine, so long as I choose carefully which ones to carry. Of course good record keeping, and being careful who I sell my wares to will also help keep products from going to unethical practices.
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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 08:30


oxalyl chloride
phosphorous oxychloride




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careysub
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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 11:31


Carbon disulfide
n-Butylamine
Sodium hydride
Sodium peroxide
Trifluoroacetic acid
Thionyl chloride
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Gurt
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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 16:12


Phosphorus Oxychloride may be a bit of a challenge, as far as shipping is concerned. It is very pricey to import and ship about, from what I have seen. On the note of phosphorus compounds, is there any interest in phosphorus pentoxide? I know it can be found sometimes online here, but the prices are ridiculous, ie $30-$40 for 50gm. I could offer this chemical at less than half the price of others.
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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 16:54


Quote: Originally posted by Gurt  
Phosphorus Oxychloride may be a bit of a challenge, as far as shipping is concerned. It is very pricey to import and ship about, from what I have seen. On the note of phosphorus compounds, is there any interest in phosphorus pentoxide? I know it can be found sometimes online here, but the prices are ridiculous, ie $30-$40 for 50gm. I could offer this chemical at less than half the price of others.


Phosphorus pentoxide can be had in the U.S. from Firefox-FX for $21/lb:
http://www.firefox-fx.com/ChemN-P.htm
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Gurt
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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 19:24


Thank you very much for letting me know, it saves from having to sit on the stuff. I had completely forgotten that they offer it, even though I had seen mention of it in abother thread. As of right now, I will have sodium borohydride, benzene, and some Lithium aluminum hydride in stock within 2 weeks.

As of now my preliminary pricing for the NaBH4 is:
1kg- $180
500g - $ 100
250g - $ 60
100g - $ 30
Do these prices seem acceptable? They will drop as I get a better understanding of what demand will be. As the cost drops sharply with larger orders from suppliers.

Also if any members would be interested, I am looking to send out samples to interested parties. So they may test and verify that product is up to standard. Therefore anyone who may want to do an analysis would be sent a free sample, if they would be willing to simply post the results of their analysis. So others may have a review of sorts before buying.
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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 19:28


I would say those prices for sodium borohydride are reasonable.

I am interested in thionyl chloride.
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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 19:36


If the price were to drop further, I would be interested in purchasing some. As it is now, I simply don't currently have enough of a need for it to drop at least $30 on it.



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Gurt
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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 19:45


I will inquire for a quote on thionyl chloride. Zts16 how much do you need? As I haven't priced out smaller quantities yet.
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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 19:55


Unfortunately, thionyl chloride may be near impossible to ship legally at a reasonable cost. This has already come up in a previous thread here. While you could circumvent shipping regulations, that is not going to result in a lasting business, as something will happen sooner or later.

As for the borohydride, that's quite a good price, especially if there's room for it to drop further. I'd be quite tempted to buy some. Any pricing on the other two you mentioned?




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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 20:05


Hi, I will look into just how much shipping on the thionyl may be. As for the other reagents, I am still working out a final price with the supplier. I will be sure to update as soon as a arrive at a solid number. So far for benzene I am looking at potentially being able to sell for less then $80 a liter, on the high side. My target is to be able to sell it for around $50-$60 a liter, which is seeming like a fairly good possibility.

Edit: After a little reading, I am doubtful that I want to carry thionyl chloride in the near future. Due to its scheduling alone. My apologies

[Edited on Apr04-23-2016 by Gurt]
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careysub
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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 21:03


I will for sure get some of that NaBH4, 250 g at least.

[Edited on 23-4-2016 by careysub]
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[*] posted on 22-4-2016 at 22:35


Quote: Originally posted by Gurt  
Hi, I will look into just how much shipping on the thionyl may be. As for the other reagents, I am still working out a final price with the supplier. I will be sure to update as soon as a arrive at a solid number. So far for benzene I am looking at potentially being able to sell for less then $80 a liter, on the high side. My target is to be able to sell it for around $50-$60 a liter, which is seeming like a fairly good possibility.

Edit: After a little reading, I am doubtful that I want to carry thionyl chloride in the near future. Due to its scheduling alone. My apologies

[Edited on Apr04-23-2016 by Gurt]


I don't see why the schedule would be a concern, but it does seem like it is fairly hard to obtain. I am pretty sure I could buy some from one of the local chemical supply stores, but the price would be outrageous. Oh and benzene shouldn't be more than $25/liter... I consider even that to be a high price for such a simple and ubiquituous substance.


[Edited on 23-4-2016 by JJay]
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Gurt
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[*] posted on 23-4-2016 at 05:11


I will see what I can work out for benzene, but it seems to be far more than $25/L wherever I look.

Edit: I received a quote now from a different importer, who is offering Benzene at a very attractive price. Which would allow me actually to shoot very close to the $25/L mark, however the have a rather large minimum order quantity (100L). If interested shoot me a U2U or drop a reply about how much you would be looking for, or if you are looking for continuous supply let me know what your demand would be. If it seems I can get close to their minimum order quantity as far as demand from interested parties, I will order it.

[Edited on Apr04-23-2016 by Gurt]
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[*] posted on 25-4-2016 at 05:22


Benzene is available on eBay for about ~$80/liter, and from supply houses I have seen it somewhere in the range of ~$180/4L. I recently purchased 4L for ~$70, but it was an old stock sale that I got it from.

And just so you know, as I am not familiar with your background, but NaBH4 is pretty hygroscopic. With deal with larger amounts exposed to the atmosphere, you will start to see it becoming wet pretty quickly. So consider this when breaking down the bulk package. You might want a way of excluding the atmosphere. It's almost sometimes easier to work with the basic aqueous solutions of NaBH4, if your substrate will tolerate the conditions.

[Edited on 25-4-2016 by Loptr]

[Edited on 25-4-2016 by Loptr]
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[*] posted on 25-4-2016 at 05:25


I can name two major suppliers that sell benzene for under $25/liter, and I can make it at home for less, although there is quite a bit of work involved.

Edit: Ugh... I just checked those vendors, and Sigma Aldrich discontinued their cheap benzene lines and the other one (which is the cheapest I am seeing) is now charging $36/liter for chromatography grade. What is the world coming to....


[Edited on 25-4-2016 by JJay]
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[*] posted on 25-4-2016 at 06:22


For the nasty liquids, you can ship up to 34 ml as a "small sample", if you package and label it correctly, and those are simpler to ship via UPS or FedEx by ground. It is not a trivial task do do it legally, but if you will be shipping any chemicals, you should be able to get the proper paperwork and find the rules on it. It is a pain, which is why I am not dealing with shipping most chemicals.
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[*] posted on 25-4-2016 at 06:36


Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob  
For the nasty liquids, you can ship up to 34 ml as a "small sample", if you package and label it correctly, and those are simpler to ship via UPS or FedEx by ground. It is not a trivial task do do it legally, but if you will be shipping any chemicals, you should be able to get the proper paperwork and find the rules on it. It is a pain, which is why I am not dealing with shipping most chemicals.


I was wondering about that... I have often seen reputable vendors ship 30 mL vials of extremely nasty liquids (bromine, phosphorus oxychloride, etc.) without any special labeling and was wondering how they got away with it. It seems reasonable that there would be an exemption for tiny quantities.

If anyone would like to send me 30 mL of thionyl chloride, I'd like to have some for my chemistry set :cool:
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[*] posted on 28-4-2016 at 06:59


NaBH4 is shipped and should be in stock within 8-10 days. Benzene is on order, as are Carbon tetrachloride, DMF, and THF. As for packing, I appreciate the advice Loptr, I have set up to handle packing under inert atmosphere, and storage is in a very well climate controlled and isolated room. Packing will be in foil/mylar vacuum bags, several layers of them. When shipped all will be shipped by FedEx according to their hazard class 4.3 packing requirements.
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[*] posted on 28-4-2016 at 10:26


The only risk here, for stuff like thionyl chloride, where Im from is seizure at the border, meaning you lose money. Unless its an illegal drug the border patrol only has the ability to seize a shipment, they cant really charge you as you are only violating import restrictions. Ive spoken to law enforcement about this issue (its the OPP here) and they have no interest in busting someone for chemicals unless those chemicals are illegal drugs. They simply dont find it worth their time to prosecute someone for a hundred grams of thionyl chloride, the paperwork isnt worth the paltry fine you'd get for posession.
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[*] posted on 28-4-2016 at 10:26


Quote: Originally posted by Gurt  
NaBH4 is shipped and should be in stock within 8-10 days. Benzene is on order, as are Carbon tetrachloride, DMF, and THF. As for packing, I appreciate the advice Loptr, I have set up to handle packing under inert atmosphere, and storage is in a very well climate controlled and isolated room. Packing will be in foil/mylar vacuum bags, several layers of them. When shipped all will be shipped by FedEx according to their hazard class 4.3 packing requirements.


Good to hear! This is starting to sound like a very interesting venture.

The first time I actually handled NaBH4 that wasn't an aqueous solution I was surprised at deliquescent it would be become. It's almost like NaOH in that regard. The powder seems to wet the easiest, which decreases as the form is provided as chunks and prills.

The wet NaBH4 hydrolyzes somewhat easily, as the BH4(-) reacts with H(+), so the alkaline NaOH solutions reduce the available H(+) capable of reacting, and there by keeping hydrolysis from proceeding.
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[*] posted on 5-5-2016 at 07:49


I'm not sure about the legality of shipping benzene to the EU, but if it's possible and doesn't cost an insane amount of money, I would be interested in buying around 1 to 5 liters of benzene. As an amateur chemist - despite having a degree in O-Chem and a vaguely professional looking lab in my garden shed - it's almost impossible for an amateur to obtain benzene within the EU. I'm tired of having to perform the old CaO/Benzoic acid reaction or scavenging through old stores to the find right kind of mothballs (i.e. 1,4-Dichlorobenzene -> grignard formation -> hydration) for a couple drops of benzene.

On a related note, does anyone know what sort of criteria I need to meet before I can purchase from companies like Sigma-Aldrich? Do I just need to be a registered company with a proper business address, or do I need to be thoroughly inspected by some sort of law agency to confirm that I'm a real profitable chemical company?

[Edited on 5/5/2016 by NitreRat]
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[*] posted on 7-5-2016 at 11:24


Hi, I will look into shipping regulations for you and let you know what I find out. From what I've seen you must be a proven business with tax number, business address, company bank account, and proof or required use to order from sigma. Also I have heard but have not personally seen that you must have been established at least 2 years prior to ordering. For myself I usually just order sigma chemicals through Fisher or another 3rd party. As they are fine with shipping to my LLC and invoicing my business. Without having a long standing prior to ordering.

[Edited on May05-7-2016 by Gurt]
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