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Author: Subject: Tetramine copper perchlorate help?
MineMan
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[*] posted on 22-8-2016 at 10:04


Well I bought some copper oxide, but in the mean time (the 10 days it takes to arrive) I have attempted this preparation again, and used the crystals from last time, as they do turn into TACP when ammonia and copper is added. I have also used a copper wire ball/nest for more surface area and it seems to be working better, but I am still confused on a few things.

Is it necessary for constant stirring of the mixture like in LL's video?

What is the optimum temperature during the several hour duration for this reaction to take place?

Is an open lid necessary like in LL's video (he had a 2cm hole in the jar lid) for fresh air, because the ammonia evaporates off rather quickly and I would think that the AP provides the oxygen needed?

I will post some more pics later, for those that are on the edge of their seats!!
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[*] posted on 22-8-2016 at 11:18


You need air (O2) to allow for dissolution of the Cu!

The ammonia dissolves the "oxyd layer" (CuO, Cu2O, Cu(OH)2 and CuCO3) of the Cu metal...as the soluble complex Cu(NH3)4(OH)2 (deep blue); then the naked metal is reoxydised by the fresh air.

You also need agitation to allow for Cu pieces to come into contact with air (faster oxydation than with underwater diffusion)!

Try with euro-cents...it is iron-steel plated with Cu...add a little ammonia solution into a PE (polyethylen) bottle with the coins.
Don't put too much ammonia, but not too little eather...when the bottle lay down on the side the coins are into contact with air inside the bottle...when the bottle is straight the ammonia covers the coins.
Shake the bottle from time to time with a screw on top cap. If the bottle is hermetic...you will notice that it will depress (oxygen is consumed leaving N2; most ammonia remains into solution owing to its affinity for water and for the Cu(2+) complex).
From time to time allow fresh air to enter the bottle and to repressurize...so you get extra O2 for further oxydation and dissolution of the copper.
After a while (a few days/weeks) the ammonia will turn deep blue and the copper plated coins will become silvery and copper free.

[Edited on 23-8-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 23-8-2016 at 08:48


I had success with very fine copper wires from electric cable, they were completely dissolved in less than 2 hours and now my TACP is pure.
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[*] posted on 23-8-2016 at 10:04
Philou´s generator TACP


Philou here describe all important. Pure Copper is not reactive, only his oxide. Very Interesting the plast type aparatus - philou - generator TACP. Very easy and cheap. I belive, that it will worked pretty quickly. Very fine wires ? Yes. In the plast jar can be use also very fine wire, copper coins or any pieces of Cu. Allways 2 minute shaking and after open and the jar slightly pressed. For adding oxygen. Recommend for 1,5 liter of plast container: 12g copper, 100g NH4OH 24%, 30g NH4ClO4. Output yield should be 33 - 36 grams of (dry) TACP. And almost all copper should be dissolved. Approximately 90 - 95 % of copper weight. Even it not much smell method. Open plast outdoor, mixing anyplace.....:cool:...Dr.



Safety explosive Alfred Nobel 1867. Safety ecologic detonator Dr. Liptakov 2015, inventor CHP and Lithex
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[*] posted on 24-8-2016 at 08:10
What would one expect?


Hello all,

Theoretically what would one expect of 2.3 grams (in a tube of lets say 6mm) of near max density 97% TACP and 3% wax (paraffin) initiated by 45mg (pressed) of SADS against a 1cm thick cast iron plate? I would expect a couple mm deep dent in the plate.

I have a few pictures of what I "think" it would look like. Would that indicate a low order detonation because the pictures show no dents, just removal of paint and a few scars?






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[*] posted on 24-8-2016 at 08:17
Other Picture


Other pic :)

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[*] posted on 24-8-2016 at 08:25


Maybe 1 cm thick iron is too much to make a hole in it, but 2.3 TACP at max density will go high order detonation for sure.
I detonated 2 grams of guanidine perchlorate with just 600 mg of TACP (unpressed, loose powder) in 6 mm copper tube against a thin aluminium plate (2 mm) and it made a big hole (>10cm).
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[*] posted on 24-8-2016 at 09:11
TACP test


TACP is not RDX or PETN. 15g TACP cube 20 x 20 x 20 mm, density 1,8 g/cm 3 (high pressed cube) easy made hole in 3 mm steel plate. Hole approximately 25 x 25 mm. On 10 mm steel thick , same cube made almost nothing. Therefore 2,3g TACP on 10 mm steel made only scratching on surface. Recommend plate 2 - 3 mm. And charge 10 - 20g. Similarly as kratomiter...:cool:...Dr



Safety explosive Alfred Nobel 1867. Safety ecologic detonator Dr. Liptakov 2015, inventor CHP and Lithex
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[*] posted on 24-8-2016 at 09:27


Also why add paraffin wax...it will reduce the D2D ability and sensitivity to SADS.

Some of the scratches/scars are deeper...schrapnels of your detonator casing have thus accelerated and penetrated the iron :) what argues in favor of a detonation.

Also to penetrate the detonation has to be perpendicular vs surface...here it seems the detonator was laying on the side and initiated parallel to the iron surface(*)...it should have been standing straight and be initiated from above.

(*)Your picture is nice because it shows initiation occured from the right and detonation went to the left (all scratches are moving forward in a detonation process (like here) and they would be backwards in a deflagration process)...

[Edited on 24-8-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 24-8-2016 at 10:23


Philou and LL great information. Yes Philou you are right about the placement, the 6cm tube was placed laying down on the plate and it was initiated in the way you suspect for this this thought experiment.

The wax idea was stolen from a rouge science post by Rosco Bondine. It serves a variety of reasons I believe.
-Takes the oxygen balence from 14.5 to about 0
-Increases the ease of compressibility
-protects the product from moisture
- reduces the sensativity.

I was worried the my product may of not been full power in this thought experiment, as I remember several color changes during filtering, drying, and some loss of ammonia when the product was heated during the wax coating process.

Also, I would like to add, do not use small copper wire for making this product, as it will become smaller and little thin pieces are impossible to filter out from the product!
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[*] posted on 24-8-2016 at 10:33


Also. The Vod is 7500ms according to LL, and the density is greater than RDX or PETN, shouldn't this be similar.... I am aware that for det pressure the Vod is squared....
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[*] posted on 24-8-2016 at 13:38


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Also. The Vod is 7500ms according to LL, and the density is greater than RDX or PETN, shouldn't this be similar.... I am aware that for det pressure the Vod is squared....

The OB of Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 is +9.7%!

CuN4H12Cl2O8 --> CuO + 2 HCl + 5 H2O + 2 N2 + O2
MM TCuP= 63.5+(4*14)+(12*1)+(2*35.5)+(8*16) = 63.5+56+12+71+128 = 330.5 g/mol
Exces O2 = 32 g/mol --> + sign
OB = 32/330.5 = 0.097 or + 9.7%

The idea to increase the energy output by providing fuel is a good one ;)...obviously the detonation occured so the wax was a good way to provide protection against moisture and less sensitivity. SADS has already done most of the preparative work of D2D.
Would be nice to compare brisance of two equivalent detonators...waxed and unwaxed for example into a comparative sand crushing.:P:):D;)
Maybe next time make use of liquid paraffin oil instead of candle wax to avoid the necessity to melt and overheat the complex...thus loosing some NH3.

The densities of metal containing primaries are always higher than convenional CHNO(Cl) energetic materials, but the metal is also detrimental on two aspects on VOD:
1°) The dead weight of metal or metal oxyd (here 63.5+16 = 79.5) is quite consequent (here about 24% of the weight) and doesn't increases the pressure (total volume of gases)
2°) The dead weight doesn't increase the quadratic speed of the exhaust gases (what is not beneficial to VOD and p).
The quadratic speed of the gaseous molecules increases when the average molecular weight of the molecules decreases...H2 displaying a MW of 2 is thus the best; then comes CH4 (MW16); then NH3 (MW17); then H2O (MW18),then HF(MW20) then CO and N2 (MW28), then O2 (MW32); then CO2 (MW44); then HCl (MW36.5); then Cl2 (MW71)...if CuO becomes gaseous it will require a lot of energy and display a MW79.5 and thus moves very slowly.

So metalic primaries will never be comparable to RDX or PETN in terms of output energy (work).

[Edited on 24-8-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 24-8-2016 at 15:21


Ok. Thank you for that explanation!

Isn't TACP a secondary.... You refered to it as a primary?

I like the idea of solid wax because it will decrease the impact and friction sensativity. What if I add a few drops of ammonia before coating the crystals?
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[*] posted on 24-8-2016 at 19:26


TACP is a primary, see BERTA detonator from Dr. Liptakov in Youtube.
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[*] posted on 24-8-2016 at 23:15
TACP


Pure TACP is in order as primary explosive. However, this order, this array is large. TACP + Wax can be really in order secondary. Will be less sensitive than pure ETN. Same example is TACP + HMTA. Arises soft material with very low sensitive on friction and and low sensitive on impact. However for this mix, laboratory tests from some university or professional laboratory is impossible find. I mean, that not exist. ..Dr.




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[*] posted on 25-8-2016 at 05:31


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Ok. Thank you for that explanation!

Isn't TACP a secondary.... You refered to it as a primary?

I like the idea of solid wax because it will decrease the impact and friction sensativity. What if I add a few drops of ammonia before coating the crystals?

The frontier between primaries and secondaries is sometimes trouble...so yes, stricto senson TACuP is more into the range of secondary because it doesn't detonate in minute amount (<1g) into the open or under slight confinement.

But the blablah about dead weight remains valid ;) for any type of compounds 1ary, 2ary or 3ary Explosives...true that the VOD and gas volume is much less important for primaries...only does matters the initiation ability of the secondary or tertiary...so for primaries the metal dead weight is stil OK.

[Edited on 25-8-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 3-9-2016 at 11:51
About TACP sensitivity


Today I was playing with SADS to test its ability to initiate explosives. 45 mg of SADS in a plastic straw (3 mm diameter) fully detonated MHN, but not TACP.
I know one test isn't enough, but TACP seems quite unsensitive.
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[*] posted on 3-9-2016 at 17:16


Yes, I am finding that in a 6mm tube 70mg only works a 1/3 to 1/2 of the time! Especially if you coat the TACP with 10% wax...

Honestly, I am so sick of failures I think i will wrap the SADS in foil and surround it with TACP, that way the TACP will be on all sides of the primary instead of just one...

SADS is amazing when made right... I feel bad even calling it a primary...
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[*] posted on 4-9-2016 at 11:07
TACP


TACP is pretty low sensitive. With wax very low sensitive. Therefore is use in system Berta. However pure TACP can have difficult DDT in diameter 6mm. Therefore is better using CHP. It is TACP 88%, HMTA 6% NH4ClO4 6%. Mixing under a few drops NH4OH on porridge, get on surface 80 C and evaporate. Arises soft material, partially crystals, partially as rubber. CHP worked in diameter only 4,3 mm. In copper cavity. General universal scheme is on Vimeo or YT system Berta. Berta detonator is possible trashing blow help the hammer on the anvil. Without explode, of course. //Not try it, everybody.// ........:cool:......Dr.



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[*] posted on 4-9-2016 at 13:17


Right LL, I was not trying to accomplish DDT, but rather using a primary:cool:
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[*] posted on 6-9-2016 at 11:36


All,

I want to perform this synthesis again, but I cannot remember the proportions. I have forgotten my stiochemistry from college, can anyone point me to a good source where I can self teach my self how to optimize each reactant so I don't waste any (I think that is called stiochemistry).

Also, I bought copper oxide to make it easier!
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[*] posted on 7-9-2016 at 13:51


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Yes, I am finding that in a 6mm tube 70mg only works a 1/3 to 1/2 of the time! Especially if you coat the TACP with 10% wax...

Honestly, I am so sick of failures I think i will wrap the SADS in foil and surround it with TACP, that way the TACP will be on all sides of the primary instead of just one...

SADS is amazing when made right... I feel bad even calling it a primary...

Aluminium is highly reactive towards Ag(+) but also towards Cu(2+)...because of the huge oxydoredox potential of the two following reactions:
Al(0) + 3 Ag(+) --> Al(3+) + 3 Ag(0) + heat
2 Al(0) + 3 Cu(2+) --> 2 Al(3+) + 3 Cu(0) + heat
So it is unwise to allow for a direct contact between the Al foil and the SADS ... or with the TAC(u)P.

The heat generated may induce spontaneous explosion of the SADS and initiation of the rest of the charge upon storage.
Beware that it is not because nothing seems to happen for a few minutes, hours or days, that the sneaky thermodynamic is not at work and unexpectedly reveals its true nature (one day it may remain stable, but the other it will explode).




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[*] posted on 7-9-2016 at 14:00


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
All,

I want to perform this synthesis again, but I cannot remember the proportions. I have forgotten my stiochemistry from college, can anyone point me to a good source where I can self teach my self how to optimize each reactant so I don't waste any (I think that is called stiochemistry).

Also, I bought copper oxide to make it easier!

What are your reactants except CuO?
The proper name is "stoichiometry" ;)




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[*] posted on 7-9-2016 at 14:38


Ahh, that is good to know that TACP should also not contact Al, as I was employing Al for an end plug of the tube... I now see one of the reasons we don't want metal molecules in explosives...in addition to dead weight.

stoichiometry, ok I will use the proper word from now on. Reactants are:
CuO
Ammonium Perchlorate
Ammonia 26-29%

Honestly, I don't even know where to start, chemical equations maybe... But how do I know if I am leaving out any intermediate reaction? Or does only the final product and initial ingredients count? It is also not only for optimization that I want to learn this... I don't want to use too much of a reactant and have it left over in the product...
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[*] posted on 7-9-2016 at 16:23


Yes you have to start with the chemical equations...then balance for equity of each atoms on both sides.
Chemical equations are like mathematic equations and can be added, simplified, multiplied or substracted :D

Because this equation is not the simpliest to start with stoichiometry, I will help you a bit :):D;):P

1°) one of the general rules of metal-acid-base-salt chemistry:
metal oxyde + acid --> metal salt + water
CuO + HClO4 --> Cu(ClO4)2 + H2O
after equilibration of the atoms
CuO + 2 HClO4 --> Cu(ClO4)2 + H2O

2°) another rule is that:
base + acid --> neutral salt + water
NH3 + H2O <--==> NH4OH (*)
NH4OH + HClO4 <--==> NH4ClO4 + H2O
By summing those:
NH3 + H2O + NH4OH + HClO4 <--==> NH4OH + NH4ClO4 + H2O
Then after simplification of H2O and NH4OH on both sides:
NH3 + HClO4 <--==> NH4ClO4 (thus a discrete form of NH3 and HClO4)
In the case of dry amines (base) and 100% concentrated acid the rule becomes:
amine + acid --> amine salt (s)

3°) let us use equations from 1°) and 2°):
NH3 + HClO4 <--==> NH4ClO4
the reverse is also true, so
NH4ClO4 <==--> NH3 + HClO4
and doubled we get
2 NH4ClO4 <==--> 2 NH3 + 2 HClO4
Let us add
CuO + 2 HClO4 --> Cu(ClO4)2 + H2O
--------------------------------------------
2 NH4ClO4 + CuO + 2 HClO4 --> 2 NH3 + 2 HClO4 + Cu(ClO4)2 + H2O
Let us simplify the HClO4 on both sides
2 NH4ClO4 + CuO --> 2 NH3 + Cu(ClO4)2 + H2O

4°) Further work:
We know Cu(2+) display a very strong affinity for ammonia and it does form a complex Cu(NH3)4(2+).
Cu(2+) + 4 NH3 <--==> Cu(NH3)4(2+)
We also know (see (*) above) that ammonia has a very strong affinity for water (1L water can dissolve 450L of gaseous NH3...see famous chemical coloured fountain)

So the following equation
2 NH4ClO4 + CuO --> 2 NH3 + Cu(ClO4)2 + H2O
can be written after doubling
4 NH4ClO4 + 2 CuO --> 4 NH3 + 2 Cu(ClO4)2 + 2 H2O
or after complexation of the NH3
4 NH4ClO4 + 2 CuO --> Cu(ClO4)2 + Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 + 2 H2O

Since only two moles of NH3 are produced by mole of CuO; only half of the Cu is fully complexed...
we thus have a lack of 4 NH3 to complexate the free Cu(ClO4)2...
Cu(ClO4)2 + 4 NH3 --> Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2
By adding this equation to the previous one we get
4 NH4ClO4 + 2 CuO + Cu(ClO4)2 + 4 NH3 --> Cu(ClO4)2 + Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 + Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 + 2 H2O
or
4 NH4ClO4 + 2 CuO + Cu(ClO4)2 + 4 NH3 --> Cu(ClO4)2 + 2 Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 + 2 H2O
after simplification of Cu(ClO4)2 into both members (right and left) of the equation
4 NH4ClO4 + 2 CuO + 4 NH3 --> 2 Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 + 2 H2O
The later final equation can be divided by 2 since all numbers of moles are even numbers
2 NH4ClO4 + 1 CuO + 2 NH3 --> 1 Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 + 1 H2O
and by final simplification because chemist are lazy ;) we don't write the "1" (like it is also often the case into mathematical equations because 1 is implicit: 1*X = X)
2 NH4ClO4 + CuO + 2 NH3 --> Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 + H2O

5°)Molecular masses:
So now by playing with atomic masses of atoms from the periodic table of the elements for N,H,Cl,O and Cu, you simply have to calculate the molecular mass of:
-NH3
-NH4ClO4
-CuO
-H2O
-Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2

6°)Weight of each reactant and each product:
Multiply by the stoichiometric factors into the equation
-2 for NH3 and NH4ClO4
-1 for CuO, Cu(NH3)4ClO4 and H2O
to get the mass of reactants and products based on a molar base
Write those numbers below each reactants and products of the equation.

7°)Weight of reactants and products:
Check that the sum of all reactants from the right is equal to the sum of all products on the left of the equation for verification purpose...write that SUM number down for further use

8°)Percentage based weights:
Divide each reactants weight by the SUM number and multiply by 100.
Do the same for each product.
Now you get the ratio of reactants and products for 100g.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The cheapest ingredient is NH3 so you can add a little exces...this also to prevent NH3 escape during process.

26-29% NH3 is 26 g - 29 g NH3 per 100g solution...
or since NH3 has a MW of 17 g/mol (=14+1*3)
--> 100g solution contains 26/17 - 29/17 moles of NH3 = 1,529 - 1,706 moles

[Edited on 8-9-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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